permaculture

[neshura <neshura@gmail.com>]

Toshio's response is very eloquent, and expresses pretty much the same
conclusion that most of my friends have come to, as far as they've
told me. I do consider this all somewhat offtopic but I can affirm
that this question comes up regularly for non-whites, particularly
with people who look Asian or Hispanic.

Having myself been the "control" in what could be considered many
years of controlled situations (how a white person puts the "where are
you from" question to other whites vs other non-whites), there is most
definitely a contextual difference that is skin-color-based and it is
quite common and not something to put down to minority oversensitivity
or cultural indoctrination.

Would you believe, in the entire six years of my relationship with my
now-ex-boyfriend (not Caucasian), no person ever asked the two of us
where we were from collectively? To contrast, in the five years that
I've known my (Caucasian) husband, we have *always* been asked the
very same question collectively, as in "We're from Minnesota, how
about you two?"

I like traveling around the country and going to B&Bs and meeting new
people, and of the hundreds of people I've met over the years, it was
a 0% vs 100% phenomenon. No doubt you have only my word to go on, but
this is a factual statement of my experience, not exaggerated for any
kind of dramatic liberal effect.

Sometimes I wouldn't be asked at all, either, only my dark-skinned
companion would get the question. The politest encounters, I think,
were when my ex-bf and I were asked separately, but at least we were
both asked, e.g. "Where are you from? blah blah... And how about you?"

His answer, "Portland, Oregon", mostly resulted in people nodding with
a bit of a bemused expression, but some people really are rude enough
to inquire further. *If* I was asked where I was from (and I was never
the 1st one asked),  "Virginia" passed muster as a satisfying reply
better than "Portland", despite being less geographically specific. I
got pretty adept at reading people's body language, and there was a
sort of nod that had a sense of satisfied recognition to it, as if to
succinctly say "Aha! I have placed you within the spectrum of American
tribes known to my experience -- an East Coaster -- close to the
center of American politics, southerly enough that I shouldn't assume
any more than a passing familiarity with clam bakes and the Liberty
bell, but not so southerly that I can immediately comment on the
absence of a distinct ethno-regional accent."
On the other hand, the nod that my ex got, visually slower and more
pensive, was more along the lines of "Hmmm... African-American or
Hispanic? Or maybe some sort of Arab? Definitely not Chinese.
Hmmm....Portland. That's no help. I wonder if the Internet can tell me
what Portland's demographic breakdown is. Hmmm.... my great-aunt lived
in Portland for three years."

It's not hard to figure out what people are thinking when a certain
percentage go so far as to speak their unfiltered thoughts, as in "So,
are you Latin? You look kinda Latin to me."

The message being broadcast by body language varies widely between
people and is subject to everyone's interpretation of course, but all
I'm trying to say is, even when people don't pursue the question
verbally, there has always been a difference in reactive body language
with my and my ex-boyfriend's respective answers, in a very general
sense of "satisfied" vs "not satisfied".
(As a point of fact as well, once in a while a non-white person would
exhibit this type of rudeness, but not often.)

With my friends from Albuquerque, New York, Santa Monica, and Idaho, I
see the same thing happen. Not just 1st or 2nd generation Americans
but 3rd, 4th, 5th, and well beyond. When "Where are you from?" means
"What is your country of origin or your parents', and for the sake of
completeness, please answer with the country of the most recent
generation that explains your racial phenotype, no matter how many
generations you have to go back in your ancestry?", it gets irksome.

I haven't got much interest in trying to determine whether this
behavior is racist. However, I have every right to consider it
ill-mannered, even ungracious -- and I've come to consider it that,
and I think less of people who act that way. (Whether they care what I
think is another matter.)

BUT, I'm no paragon of diplomacy and circumspect discretion, and I'm
terribly curious about people just like anyone else. What I admit to
is, if I hear that someone has a thick accent, I'm pretty frank that
if I can't place it, I want to ask what it is, and IF the situation
and body language is friendly and open, I *will* say, "You speak with
such a great accent, I'm trying to place it, [Filipino|North
Carolinian|Austrian] perhaps?". One catches white and non-white
Americans and plenty of non-Americans all in the same net, and it is
my own self-justifying view that accent is a much more celebratory
jumping-off point for a conversation about origins. Celebrating,
rather than separating.

-neshura


On 5/28/07, Toshio Kuratomi <a.badger@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 5/28/07, Lisa Rollens <rollens@fidnet.com> wrote:
> > Toshio,
> >
> > I know you are right that racism is alive and well in the USA.  Bu have you
> > ever been to very rural areas?
>
> Yep.  Lived in several of those areas myself for many years; my
> father, cousins, and wife all grew up in rural America.  We all had
> different reactions to those environments... since I always knew I
> could "escape" I was probably the one that felt the least slighted by
> the unconscious and conscious bigotry that I encountered.
>
> > As for asking about where a person's ancestors came from, I really think you
> > might be mistaken on that account.  We do that routinely, too.  It's
> > interesting to find out such information in this big melting pot we call the
> > US.
> Ah but that's the thing.  I'm not mistaken about how I feel about it.
> And I'm not mistaken by how my father feels about it or my sisters.
> Asking "Where are you from?"  "No, I mean where are your parents
> from?"  "No, I mean, where were your ancestors from, you know,
> orginally?"  is really rude.  It's not letting me melt into the
> melting pot.  I'll always be the odd chunk of ore that is an impurity
> rather than part of the alloy.
>
> The problem is that "Where are you from" means different things when
> asked of a white neighbor and an Asian neighbor.  The white neighbor
> is allowed to reply "California" but the Asian neighbor is not.  Why
> is it okay to insist that I must be from Japan when I've never seen
> the place, never spoken the language, and only interacted with
> Japanese people three times in my life (for less than 24 hours each
> time)?
>
>  I especially ask questions when I find out someone has Italian
> > ancestors.  I ask what they eat for Christmas dinner!  When I find out that
> > they ate what we ate as children, it gives us things in common.  And aren't
> > we supposed to be finding commonalities and bringing people together?  Oh,
> > we had homemade ravioli when the grandfolks and sisters (my mom and aunts)
> > were all alive to make it in advance.  It was a big undertaking and the end
> > result was about 600 ravioli to be split among the family.  Those are our
> > roots, and I don't think there is anything wrong with exchanging that
> > information with others.
> >
> Cool!  So ask what I eat for Christmas dinner :-).  Or better yet,
> stop and determine what you really want to know.  Are you looking for
> ideas for non-traditional Christmas meals?  Ask "I like to make
> something different for Christmas every year and wondered if you had
> been raised with something special that isn't on most white American's
> plates".  Are you interested in whether Christmas revolved around a
> festive meal?  Ask "We celebrated Christmas by cooking a big meal of
> turkey and sweet potatoes.  Did you do something similar?" Give
> meaning to the question beyond "Hey Jap! Do you eat dog for
> Christmas?"  (Which I hope is an exageration of what goes through the
> minds of anyone in my generation that is asked that question.  My
> father might be reminded of questions asked when he grew up,
> though....)
>
> > And yes, I also find it terribly sad that the parents around here do not
> > teach their children "their language", which would be English.  It's very
> > hard to correct bad habits later in life.
> >
> Hah!  To add to the jest:  I find it terribly sad that no one teaches
> their kids proper British English.  I mean, how can your kids call
> their grandparents back home if they can't even speak the same
> language?
>
> > You say..."There's a million half-conscious ways in which the dominant
> > culture offends minority cultures without realizing it, without intending
> > to, and definitely not profitting from it."  Maybe, just maybe, since we
> > don't intend to do that, don't profit from it and don't realize it, that the
> > minority culture is being a little too 'sensitive'???  How can you hold
> > something against a person if they don't know what they are doing is wrong??
> > (assuming their head is not in the sand purposely??)
> >
> You've got the accusations mixed up.  Nobody's accusing the speaker of
> being racist.  We're accusing the language the speaker uses as
> expressing a racist sentiment.  The language is establishing an us and
> them.  It's reminding the person being talked to that they don't fit
> in.  That no matter how well they speak the language, no matter where
> they were born, no matter how "culturally American" they are they will
> always be the outsider and subject to being identified as "that Asian
> guy".
>
> BTW, I don't hold it against someone if they ask where I'm from and
> expect me to answer Japan.  But I do decide they're extremely
> insensitive if they continue throw the entire chain of questioning.
> (To which I answer "California", "Pennsylvania", and, I admit I've
> never had the guts to actually answer this: "Africa; same as you").
> But the idea that the minority is too sensitive for noticing this is
> quite untrue.  If I were to go around your fine Missouri town asking
> people 
> where-are-you-from-no-i-mean-where-are-your-parents-from-no-i-mean-where-are-your-ancestors-from-you-know-originally
> while visibly showing how increasingly exasperated I found it talking
> to someone too stupid to understand my question, how long before I had
> pricked a sensitive spot in someone?  The trick is to educate people
> as to why it offends people and offer suggestions for getting to the
> information they really want without ending up playing the part of
> Socrates :-)
>
> > And as for you last paragraph about being racist if one uses those
> > statements...hogwash!  the receipient is being told that their kind will
> > never be as American as the speaker????  None of us are originally American,
> > and that's what makes it all so interesting.  I know there are a few
> > 'blueblood' types who follow their family trees back to Plymouth Rock or
> > Jamestown, but the majority of us Americans are a hodgepodge of foreign
> > ancestors.
>
> And that interpretation of "American" might be the root of the
> problem.  You see, there is no "original American".  Being American
> has nothing to do with where you're from.  It has everything to do
> with the culture you practice.  At least, that's what the version of
> American history we're taught in schools is, isn't it?  Teaching us
> that America is a land where anyone can become an American if they
> work hard enough and desire it enough.  Even an immigrant (let alone
> their offspring) can be an American.
>
> So why is it that if you aren't a hodgepodge of foreign ancestors, if
> your phenotype is distinguishable as "Asian/Pacific Islander", that
> I'm expected to say "Insert Asian Country Here" when asked where I'm
> from instead of "New York City"?
>
>   We know it and like it.  As a matter of fact, that's why I don't
> > like the term 'African-American'...as it tends to separate rather than bring
> > together.  I think blacks are as American as I am.
> >
> This makes me laugh because I was thinking of working into the
> previous message how I hate the bubbles on standardised tests,
> employment applications, etc that ask you to mark your race.  I always
> mark Asian-American because culturally I am neither (not Asian because
> my culture starts post-World War II when my grandparents were born
> fully formed from a set of internment camps and not American because I
> am not accepted into that.)
>
> You also touch on something very interesting --  my complaint is one
> of an immigrant.  it's not when will I be allowed to be equal,
> respected, not subject to overt discrimination, etc... it's simply,
> when will I be allowed to be American?  I think the racism that
> African-Americans and some other minorities experience may cause them
> to have very different complaints.
>
> -Toshio
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