permaculture

[camille cimino <camcim@yahoo.com>]

hello there,

i don't find anything offensive about rain's comments.
 i also find this subject intriguing.

i don't know about anywhere else but here in LA the
"wealthy hippie" and the "trustafarian" exsist and are
alive and well.

these are generally ALL of my clients.

i also consider myself NOT a hippie or an
environmentalist.  i think generally those terms or
labels have too many impressions and judgement linked
to them.

even the term permaculture is slowly getting clouded.

i like to stick to the designer's manual and i tend to
be straight forward like bill mollison.  i don't think
of him as either a new ager or a hippie.

i also find it fascinating that PC attracts new agers
and spirtually based groups because i believe it
implicitly states in the designer's manual to "leave
all the faces of GOD" out of the discusssion.

in my opinion any spirtutality that is linked with
permaculture only clouds it and causes separation and
distance.

i actually really dislike PC groups and events that
force rituals, hand holding circles, self disclosure
etc. as part of the program.

it makes me wanna opt out.  i prefer to keep my
spirituality personal and private.  i also choose to
practice my spirituality with groups and people of
similiar beliefs.  let's keep permaculture about
PERMACULTURE.

PC is based on reality, facts, and physics NOT
spirituality. 

my $0.02

camille cimino





 

> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 19:06:08 -0800 (PST)
> From: Rain Tenaqiya <raincascadia@yahoo.com>
> Subject: [permaculture] The main reason why New
> Agers dominate
>       permaculture
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID:
> <372184.90395.qm@web39707.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> My own opinion is that the reason why New Agers tend
> to dominate permaculture groups is because wealthy
> hippie types seem to outnumber other types.  Wealthy
> hippies tend to have self-assuring beliefs which
> make them feel good, and help assuage any guilt they
> have for being so privileged in a very messed up
> world.  I personally despise New Age religion and
> find a lot of it in direct contradiction to
> permaculture principles.  A New Ager recently told
> me that the black Darfurians were being attacked
> because they had rape and murder obsessed minds.
>    
>   Rain
> 
>  
> ---------------------------------
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:28:16 +1100
> From: "Scott Hitchins" <ScottH@wcig.org.au>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] nuclear
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
>
<8C35476AAA78F84F88B67BA63E021C8C0B3802@boba.wcig.org.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> This sounds like useful info for debating the issue.
>  Is there a reliable source we could quote?
> Regards,
> Scott Hitchins
> 
> ________________________________
> 
> From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org on
> behalf of Martin Naylor
> Sent: Tue 30/01/2007 9:22 AM
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: [permaculture] nuclear
> 
> 
> 
> To clear up the nuclear Q's there is only 60 years
> of usable A grade uranium reserves so how it could
> possibly be suggested as of any use to any one is
> unbelievable
>   Martin
> 
>  Send instant messages to your online friends
> http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
> <http://au.messenger.yahoo.com/> 
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:04:40 -0800
> From: Paul Cereghino <paul.cereghino@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Pond Plant
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <45BEC3D8.8030309@comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
> format=flowed
> 
> be forewarned, raccoons like water hyacinth too...
> but some might 
> consider raccoons a yield of you pond as well  ;)  I
> haven't tried it 
> but I just read yesterday that the common speedwell
> (Veronica americana) 
> is a delicacy to some (Schofield, 1989) and grows
> like a weed.
> 
> Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote:
> 
> >Patrick McKown wrote:
> >
> >  
> >
> >>All these "invasive" pond plants have one thing in
> common. Continuous sources of nutrients. They
> >>are a response to this alone.
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >My ponds catch runoff from watersheds with a lot of
> gardenspace; it either goes into the ponds or
> >it fertilizes the neighbor's woods. There is enough
> nutrient in them to keep duckweed multiplying all
> winter.
> >I'd like to purify this water and produce high
> quality fertilizer from aquatic plants. So far I
> have duckweed, water 
> >lillies, cattails and papyrus; I plan to add
> hydrilla. If I can overwinter water hyacinth I will
> add that too.
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 23:32:00 -0500
> From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Pond Plant
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <45BECA40.3080007@intrex.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252;
> format=flowed
> 
> Paul Cereghino wrote:
> 
> > be forewarned, raccoons like water hyacinth too...
> but some might 
> > consider raccoons a yield of you pond as well  ;) 
> I haven't tried it 
> 
> They can be dangerous if encountered and cornered
> unexpectedly. They are prime candidates for rabies
> and
> then are very aggressive as are foxes. I am somewhat
> isolated, almost surrounded by woods and the rabies
> threat scares 
> the hell out of me. Then I also have to deal with
> poisonous copperhead snakes and black widow spiders,
> also ground 
> dwelling, swarming, aggressive bumblebees and yellow
> jackets.
> 
> > but I just read yesterday that the common
> speedwell (Veronica americana) 
> > is a delicacy to some (Schofield, 1989) and grows
> like a weed.
>
http://www.msuturfweeds.net/details/_/creeping_speedwell_2/
> Creeping Speedwell (P) ? Veronica filiformis ?
> Family: Scrophulariaceae (Figwort)
> Look alikes are:
> # Corn Speedwell (Veronica arvensis)
> # Germander Speedwell (Veronica chamaedrys)
> # Ground Ivy (Glechoma hederacea)
> # Henbit (Lamium amplexicaule)
> 
> Looks nice; I'd welcome that plant friend as I do
> most with the notable exception of Bermuda grass and
> poison ivy,
> and sometimes bamboo. I am especially fond of ground
> ivy, which has such a nice smell.
> 
> -- 
> Lawrence F. London, Jr.
> Venaura Farm
> lfl@intrex.net
> http://market-farming.com
> http://market-farming.com/venaurafarm
> http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
> http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 21:29:06 -0700
> From: "Don Titmus" <ujgs2@4dirs.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] The main reason why New
> Agers dominate
>       permaculture
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <000001c74428$cb1eea50$0200a8c0@dons>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed;
> charset="iso-8859-1";
>       reply-type=original
> 
> I can't believe I'm hearing this stuff from this
> list.
> 
> I dont mind if you believe in a God (creation) or
> Big Bang (evolution) WE 
> ALL COME FROM THE SAME SOURCE.
> 
> Black, yellow, red, white or whatever. Every person
> on this planet is YOUR 
> COUSIN. So stop bad mouthing other people for their
> beliefs, look beyond the 
> masks and SEE/FEEL the true person.
> 
> And then live the PC ethic .....care of people.
> 
> Namaste, Don
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Rain Tenaqiya" <raincascadia@yahoo.com>
> To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 8:06 PM
> Subject: [permaculture] The main reason why New
> Agers dominate permaculture
> 
> 
> > My own opinion is that the reason why New Agers
> tend to dominate 
> > permaculture groups is because wealthy hippie
> types seem to outnumber 
> > other types.  Wealthy hippies tend to have
> self-assuring beliefs which 
> > make them feel good, and help assuage any guilt
> they have for being so 
> > privileged in a very messed up world.  I
> personally despise New Age 
> > religion and find a lot of it in direct
> contradiction to permaculture 
> > principles.  A New Ager recently told me that the
> black Darfurians were 
> > being attacked because they had rape and murder
> obsessed minds.
> >
> >  Rain
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low
> PC-to-Phone call rates.
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >
>
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 23:43:28 -0500
> From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] The main reason why New
> Agers dominate
>       permaculture
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <45BECCF0.8090105@intrex.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii;
> format=flowed
> 
> Rain Tenaqiya wrote:
> 
> > My own opinion is that the reason why New Agers
> tend to dominate permaculture groups is because 
> > wealthy hippie types seem to outnumber other
> types.  Wealthy hippies tend to have self-assuring
> beliefs 
> > which make them feel good, and help assuage any
> guilt they have for being so privileged in a very
> messed up world.  
> > I personally despise New Age religion and find a
> lot of it in direct contradiction to permaculture
> principles.  
> > A New Ager recently told me that the black
> Darfurians were being attacked because they had rape
> and murder obsessed minds.
> 
> What a hoot.
> 
> "Wealthy hippies".
> 
> There were the sixties, a cultural renaissance, and
> the Beatniks who evolved from the Bohemians who date
> way back.
> Then these folks began migrating to the country to
> live away from the ratrace and learn to become
> self-sufficient
> and live a healthy, independent life in a nurturing
> environment. These back-to-the-landers are identical
> to present day 
> permaculturists.
> 
> So what, who are these hippies you refer to? The
> frothingmouth rightwingers constantly drivel on
> about hoe the "hippies 
> of the sixties" are the root cause of all the
> problems we have nowadays.
> 
> -- 
> Lawrence F. London, Jr.
> Venaura Farm
> lfl@intrex.net
> http://market-farming.com
> http://market-farming.com/venaurafarm
> http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
> http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 20:14:30 +1100
> From: jedd <jedd@progsoc.org>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] nuclear
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <200701302014.31889.jedd@progsoc.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain;  charset="iso-8859-15"
> 
> On Tuesday 30 January 2007 2:28 pm, Scott Hitchins
> wrote:
>  ] This sounds like useful info for debating the
> issue.  Is there
>  ] a reliable source we could quote?
> 
>  No .. there isn't.
> 
>  There is much debate about the quantity of Uranium
> isotopes
>  in no small part because much of it has yet to be
> found*.  Some
>  people cite 50 years worth of a certain grade of
> ore, other people
>  cite 200 years of useful ore, but ultimately it's
> pretty irrelevant
>  as well as being a pointless part of any argument.
> 
>  Far more compelling is the problem that from whoa
> to go, from
>  commissioning, through ore acquisition through to
> disposal of
>  wastes and de-commissioning of the structure ..
> you're looking
>  at about 75% of the CO2 emissions of a coal-powered
>  plant of
>  similar output.
> 
>  A segue - China is bringing a new coal-powered
> plant online every
>  7 - 14 days (depending who you talk to) and this
> rate of growth is
>  anticipated to last 4-7 years (ditto).  This stuff
> dwarfs trivial
>  issues of whether we're using coal or uranium -
> even if China, f.e.,
>  were to ditch the coal plans and adopt uranium
> we're still looking
>  at an untenable release of CO2 over the next 20-50
> years.  This in
>  spite of the Three Gorges dam - ostensibly
> sufficient to provide power
>  to about 250 million people (ten times the
> population of my
>  country - Australia - from just one hydro scheme). 
> The construction
>  of that dam involved the relocation of 20 million
> people - many of
>  whom are going to be even more annoyed when the
> water stops flowing
>  into it in a few years.
> 
>  Jedd.
> 
> 
>  *  There's a story, which may be apocryphal, about
> a time that I was
>  visiting Jenolan Caves near Sydney many years ago,
> and after our
>  guide told the story of how one of these caves was
> only quite
>  recently, and entirely accidentally discovered,
> someone in the tour
>  group asked him how many more undiscovered caves
> were in the
>  region.  He stared at them for a moment and then
> said "Seven".
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 9
> Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 08:02:30 -0500
> From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
> Subject: [permaculture] BBC NEWS | Science/Nature |
> Melting of
>       glaciers        'speeds up'
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <45BF41E6.7080405@intrex.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii;
> format=flowed
> 
> 
>
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6310869.stm>
> Last Updated: Monday, 29 January 2007, 17:57 GMT
> Environment correspondent, BBC News website
>       
> Imaging a glacier's decline
> 
> In pictures
> Mountain glaciers are shrinking three times faster
> than they were in the 1980s, scientists have
> announced.
> 
> The World Glacier Monitoring Service, which
> continuously studies a sample of 30 glaciers around
> the world, says the 
> acceleration is down to climate change.
> 
> Its announcement came as climate scientists convened
> in Paris to decide the final wording of a major
> report.
> 
> There is reported to be some disagreement over what
> forecasts they will make for sea level rise.
> 
> But whatever form of words they agree on, the
> Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC)
> will declare that 
> human-induced climate change is happening and needs
> to be tackled.
> 
>       
> We will enter conditions which we have not seen in
> the past 10,000 years, and perhaps conditions which
> mankind has never 
> experienced
> Wilfried Haeberli, WGMS
> "[The report] embodies substantial new research, it
> addresses gaps that existed in our knowledge
> earlier, it has reduced 
> existing uncertainties," IPCC chairman Rajendra
> Pachauri told reporters at a news briefing in Paris.
> 
> "I hope policies and actions will be formed to
> address the problem."
> 
> The report, due out on Friday, forms the first part
> of the IPCC's Fourth Assessment Report, and will be
> the latest 
> definitive assessment of climate science.
> 
> Melting away
> 
> Of all the various features that make up the surface
> of the Earth, glaciers are perhaps showing the
> starkest signs of 
> rising temperatures.
> 
> The World Glacier Monitoring Service (WGMS), based
> in Switzerland, continuously studies a set of 30
> mountain glaciers in 
> different parts of the world. It is not quite a
> representative sample of all mountain glaciers, but
> does give a reliable 
> indication of global trends.
> 
>       
> MOUNTAIN GLACIERS DECLINE
> Graph of glacier decline. Image: BBC
> Data comes from sample of 30 mountain glaciers
> Glaciers have different densities, so thinning is
> expressed in metres of water equivalent (mwe)
> One mwe is roughly equivalent to 1.1m of ice
> The latest survey, just released, shows accelerating
> decline. During 2005, this sample of 30 glaciers
> became, on 
> average, 60-70cm thinner.
> 
> This figure is 1.6 times more than the average
> annual loss during the 1990s, and three times faster
> than in the 1980s.
> 
> With mountain glaciers typically only tens of metres
> thick, this meant, said WGMS director Wilfried
> Haeberli, that many 
> would disappear on a timescale of decades if the
> trend continued.
> 
> "We can say there were times during the warmer
> periods of the last 10,000 years when glaciers have
> been comparable to 
> what they are now," he told the BBC News website.
> 
> "But it is not the past that worries us, it is the
> future. With the scenarios predicted, we will enter
> conditions which 
> we have not seen in the past 10,000 years, and
> perhaps conditions which mankind has never
> experienced."
> 
> Last year, WGMS scientists forecast that the Alps
> would lose up to three-quarters of their glaciers
> during the coming 
> century.
> 
> The WGMS is closely allied to the United Nations
> Environment Programme, whose executive director
> Achim Steiner 
> commented: "Glaciers are important sources of water
> for many important rivers upon which people depend
> for drinking 
> water, agriculture and industrial purposes.
> 
> "The findings... should strengthen the resolve of
> governments to act now to reduce greenhouse gas
> emissions."
> 
> Rough seas
> 
> The IPCC report due out on Friday is likely to
> contain stronger wording than its previous
> assessment, in 2001, on the 
> likelihood that human activities are principally
> responsible for the climatic changes observed around
> the world.
> 
> Protest banner. Image: AFP/Getty
> Campaigners have sent a message to IPCC scientists
> meeting in Paris
> The 2001 report forecast that by the end of this
> century, temperatures would have risen by between
> 1.4C and 5.8C.
> 
> The new report is likely to reduce the range of
> uncertainty, though not rule out the possibility
> entirely of increases 
> in the order of 5.8C.
> 
> But there is reported to be disagreement over the
> wording on expected sea level rise.
> 
> A bigger network of tide gauges and other
> instruments has enabled researchers to conclude that
> the sea level is on 
> average rising by about 2mm per year, or 20cm per
> century.
> 
> This is one of the factors which led to earlier
> drafts of this report projecting rises by the end of
> the century which 
> were a lot less than the maximum figure of 88cm
> contained in the 2001 version.
> 
> But some scientists are arguing that recent
> observations of the Greenland and West Antarctic ice
> sheets suggest a major 
> melt may be commencing. This, they say, should be
> reflected in the eventual IPCC projections.
> 
> Richard.Black-INTERNET@bbc.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
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>
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> 
> 
> End of permaculture Digest, Vol 48, Issue 62
> ********************************************
> 



 
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