permaculture

[lbsaltzman@aol.com]

I agree on your statement about indigenous people. And I still argue that 
human cultural patterns are part of nature and are as valid to study and 
understand as any other patterns that are studied in permaculture.   
 
Some form of spirituality and religion is a cultural universal and critical 
to the survival of any culture.  Permaculturalists seem to have no problem 
thinking about and including in their design other invisible structures that 
are part of human culture.  We don't seem afraid to deal with economic 
structures and settlement patterns. I can assure you that most indigenous 
cultures have spirituality and religion so interwoven in the structure of 
their culture that it can't and shouldn't be separated out. There is even 
evidence that religious practices pre-dated our species. Amongst at least one 
other member of genus Homo, Homo Neanderthalensis, we find the beginnings of 
spiritual/religious practices in the burial practices.  
 
I see Permaculture designers approaching human settlement patterns, 
community, and making many changes that can alter the culture of a given 
group of people. I think that it is naive to think you can play with human 
culture and ignore spirituality and religion which are core to any human 
culture. Obviously, I don't think permaculture practicioners should behave 
like European missionaries of old and impose a specific religion. In the 
third world where cultures may have powerful and intact religious practices 
don't be so naive as to think that benign changes introduced into the culture 
can't have unexpected consequences. And when working in the 1st world with 
people, often cut off from the Earth, but intent on forming intentional 
communities, I suggest that thinking through the invisible structures of 
religion and spirituality can't be ignored any more than figuring out how the 
community survives economically.
 
As to the person who sneered at new age people in a recent post, I would say 
the following. Yes some can be flakey, but in their own way they are embarked 
on a journey to restore important human spiritual patterns of Earth based 
religions that have been lost in our secular society.  Some new agers may go 
off the deep end and get lost, but others have done important work in 
reconnecting us to the planet we live on.  I am sure in a hundred years if 
humanity gets it right and is living sustainably, the insights of 
permaculture and new age folks will both have their place in the new 
sustainble society. Hopefully our descendents will have taken the best of 
both permaculture and new age spirituality and other movements and left the 
worst behind. I am sure that those folks in the future could look back at the 
early tentative steps the permaculture designers are taking and be critical 
of some of the mistakes that were made just as they could about new age 
spirituality. Hopefully, they will be mature enough not to do that, but to 
respect their ancestors for the wisdom the possessed.
 
 Larry Saltzman

-----Original Message-----
From: dtv@mwt.net
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture Digest, Vol 48, Issue 62


Tell this to the indigenous peoples whose 1000s of years of  
relationships with the world around them inspire a lot of  
permaculture practitioners.

~mIEKAL

In one of our early permaculture courses at Dreamtime, we had 3  
Hochunk guys who were constantly bored with the lectures & went  
outside to smoke.  At one point I joined them outside next to our  
chicken pen & they told me it was farm more interesting what the  
various chickens were saying to each other about their lives inside  
the pen & the proceded to explain to me in detail what each chicken  
was saying.


On Jan 30, 2007, at 9:49 AM, camille cimino wrote:

>
> PC is based on reality, facts, and physics NOT
> spirituality.
>

_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and security 
tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, 
free AOL Mail and more.