permaculture

[negiliblek <negiliblek@yahoo.com>]

Bob Randall wrote:

>1. conjunctive attribute definition:to call something X, it has  
>certain necessary and sufficient traits.

>2. Disjunctive attribute definition: item  has either these traits or some 
>>others:

Kurt Gödel did a great job showing that symbolic representations are 
incomplete or inconsistent- but still we talk, write and create art to share 
ideas.

Zen masters tells us the finger is not the moon -but still we point.

>Prototypic  definitions:
>For me "real  
>trees" are maples while in some parts of California, palms are.

my brain has been mis-wired, when someone says "tree", I wait anxiously for 
clues from their mouth to indicate which "tree" they mean (everyone says I'm 
a bit strange).  I've never agreed with this linguistic "principle"; I 
believe it to be a stage of a developing mind, a stage which some never 
finish passing through.  Yes, I know there are studies which "prove it true".

See here sir, this is my helmet, and is no pot. I sit on a mighty steed, not 
an ass!

>Schematic definitions:
>"a shortstop" and "steal a base"

baseball terms are great examples of schematic definitions, but the next 
example fails to meet my notion of schematic definition:

>Try to imagine
>explaining "xeroxing" or "googling" to a person in 1910 or even 1955.

I have no problem explaining this to a person from 1910 or 1955:
"...and here we have magic box A that instantly prints a copy of the writting 
and art work of an original peice of paper onto a prepared blank peice of 
paper. We call this magic process xeroxing"

" ..over here we have magic box B which contains a library of sorts which we 
can ask questions of by means of the printed lettered squares.  upon entering 
our question, we get a variety of answers from sundry and various authors. We 
call this whole magic process googling"

"and you too can know how this magic box works for just $10,000." 
sorry about that last bit, I've been in-corporated too long.

>I think it  
>is an error to seek a conjunctive attribute definition for a complex  
>schema-- though listing the traits and attributes of a permacultural  
>design certainly helps the beginner get an idea. 

Now, here,  I think I apprehend the root of your agruement and what would 
prompt you to write.

>Graham says it is  "a  
>set of ethics, principles, and design methods."  

>I would say rather  
>it is not a set of anything, but an activity or its mental  
>representation as a schema we do as part of a complex plan 

which the Zen masters and Godel have already told us we cannot, with 
completeness, communicate to others with symbols.

This does not mean we cannot conceptilze something, to know something.

This does not mean we cannot use symbols that are very close approximations 
to help clear up inaccurate thinking, not only in a beginner, but in an 
intelligent person, such as yourself making the incorrect example of the 
xerox machine instead of staying with the excellent example of schematic 
definitions found in baseball terms.

>best  
>learned through much guided practice. 

I agree, guided practice is the best way to learn ( but I have had to learn 
with no mentor, no guide except symbols laid down by other minds to the best 
of their ability, from which I learned and was "guided" by the symbols of 
many, to map the symbols in their incompleteness, to the real world.)

I am not trying to take a method of learning away from someone; I am trying 
to offer up a way for those minds coming behind me, who learns/struggles in 
seclusion to bring into creation the fruits of those trials into the elegant, 
physical world.

Without a path of symbols to make me ask "what does that mean?", I have no 
equal nor mentor near my elbow to jostle me into discovery.

>We can tell you about the ideas  
>that characterize it, but understanding permaculture's meaning comes  
>out of the engaged educated practice.

Through this database, I hope to provide a segment, a portion of  "educated" 
in your "engaged educated practice". I leave it to the user of the database 
to practice in their life as I cannot force them even if I could reach them.

> I can't tell you what the word "xeroxing" really means if  
>you have never done it or seen it.

again, I disagree and have shown it possible; but I still agree with your 
baseball term "stealing a base" example.

Bob, during each stage of development and testing, I'll ask you to point out 
the schematic defintions that I'm assuming people have brought to website to 
access the database or enter data. Assuming schematic definitions is a grave 
error and doesn't need to happen (see my magic box example). But, being 
human, I will make them, so I'll need you to point them out.

>We would be better off telling  
>people that pc is a complex design activity whose purposes are ...,  
>that like reading, calculus or Arabic, it cannot be understood  
>clearly except by a lengthy course of study and practice.  

This is true of any body of knowledge, art or craft; including science.
...and which anyone will discover who attempts to practice what they find in 
the database. I expect to see questions like "I tried this and this from the 
database and it failed... how come?"  -AND SO- the socratic dialogue begins ( 
i.e. did you do this?, is your environment such?,etc).

I ask you not to be afraid of this media instead of letting it being a weak 
brain babysitter like the TV has become to most. You won't lose clients; 
you'll gain them if your advice and data is good.

>We could  add that we believe with justification that it is the only likely 
>>way our of the mess the planet is in. So everyone should become a  
>practitioner and learn what the word means.

Those that will practice let them, then let them share their ideas as indepth 
or as shallowly as they will.

 ..but let them share so that we all can learn and clear up mis-conceptions. 

Those that will not practice, will not be tricked into practice.

Thank you for so gently challenging the ideals upon which my project are 
founded.

negiliblek

 __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com