permaculture

["Tradingpost" <tradingpost@gilanet.com>]

Deborah, what I'm trying to clarify is why Permaculture is being redefined to 
include almost anything from 10,000 acre cattle ranches to balcony lettuce 
pots on the 60th floor of a Manhattan apartment. And the replies raise the 
question of why bringing up the original concept of Permaculture gets such a 
hostile reaction. And why this list disavows completely the original concept 
of Permaculture as envisioned by those who coined the term. A simple 
explanation would be nice.

paul@largocreekfarms.com
http://medicinehill.net

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 10/25/2004 at 9:50 PM Deborah wrote:

>***Highly presumptious statement. Doesn't matter whether Mollison or
>anyone else says it, I say that permaculture can be thoroughly practiced
>in NYC. Permaculture can be practiced anywhere whether you live in a
>60th-floor apartment (ever heard of organic hydroponics?, aquaponics?) or
>on a 10000 acre cattle ranch in the middle of Iowa. No matter where you
>go, there you are.***
>
>Certainly, different aspects of PC can be practiced anywhere. But, how
>sustainable is an apt on the 60th floor, even the 3rd floor? And
>particularly if there's no energy to pump water? No water... no
>hydroponics or aquaponics... or people.
>Without energy, no elevators. Do you walk up and down 60 flights of stairs
>every time you want to go outdoors, or to the garden which might be in
>zone 10?
>At best, PCizing a high rise apt seems like an acceptable interim
>strategy. It seems that it might be difficult to be in touch with Earth
>when one is not in touch with Earth, but 20, 40, 60 ft above her.
>I applaud anyone who attempts PC in the city, much less an apt building,
>but I find it really hard to imagine providing all (or even a majority) of
>one's needs in an apt.
>I visited some of the links to the 'green' apts in NYC. I don't mean to
>minimize or be critical, so don't hear it that way, but, does each apt
>need its own washer and dryer? Were they designed for cross ventilation?
>The photos didn't look 'green' to me. In fact I saw no green space and
>very few trees. I saw many things that could've been designed differently
>and better.
>I look forward to hearing from folks in NYC, or any city for that matter,
>about things they figure out.
>Deborah
>
>
>Why debate whether it can be done, just go and do it, do something new and
>innovative.
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: Lawrence F. London, Jr.<mailto:lfl@intrex.net>
>  To: permaculture<mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>  Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 11:35 PM
>  Subject: Re: [permaculture] Way of life
>
>
>  Tradingpost wrote:
>
>  > Perhaps you'll be good enough to show us where in Mollison  &
>Holmgren's original work that the permaculture
>  > concept can be lived in the city or under a bridge. I'd like to see
>it.
>
>  Highly presumptious statement. Doesn't matter whether Mollison or anyone
>else says it, I say that permaculture can
>  be thoroughly practiced in NYC. Permaculture can be practiced anywhere
>whether you live in a 60th-floor apartment
>  (ever heard of organic hydroponics?, aquaponics?) or on a 10000 acre
>cattle ranch in the middle of Iowa. No matter
>  where you go, there you are.
>
>  Why debate whether it can be done, just go and do it, do something new
>and innovative.
>
>  LL
>  --
>  L.F.London
>  lfl@intrex.net<mailto:lfl@intrex.net>
>  http://market-farming.com<http://market-farming.com/>
>  http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech<http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech>
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