permaculture

[Jay Woods <woodsjay@cox.net>]

If I had the problem of living in an apartment in NYC, I'd plant tomatoes and 
lettuce on the balcony. Both plants are perennials when not frosted out, esp. 
tomatoes. One of the ideas of permaculture is to make permanent plantings 
rather than annual plantings. Since it is difficult to get the lettuce and 
tomatoes to take up the whole of the sun lit balcony without building a 
framework to hold the plants up, plant a grape vine and train it to intercept 
the unused sunlight. Another of the ideas of permaculture is to make full use 
of the sunlight. Since the mass (people, food, water) going up in a building 
is approximately matched by mass (people, sewage) going down and that a lot 
of rain water is landing on the roof, by proper engineering no significant 
energy needs to be used to run the pumps and elevators. (Of course, plenty is 
being used, but then the proper engineering isn't being used. ) Still another 
idea of permaculture is to minimize the travel of people and food and make 
use of the water and sewage as it runs down hill. 

It may not BE permaculture, but it sure can get close. 

On Monday 25 October 2004 11:37 pm, Tradingpost wrote:
> Deborah, what I'm trying to clarify is why Permaculture is being redefined
> to include almost anything from 10,000 acre cattle ranches to balcony
> lettuce pots on the 60th floor of a Manhattan apartment. And the replies
> raise the question of why bringing up the original concept of Permaculture
> gets such a hostile reaction. And why this list disavows completely the
> original concept of Permaculture as envisioned by those who coined the
> term. A simple explanation would be nice.
>
> paul@largocreekfarms.com
> http://medicinehill.net
>
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>
> On 10/25/2004 at 9:50 PM Deborah wrote:
> >***Highly presumptious statement. Doesn't matter whether Mollison or
> >anyone else says it, I say that permaculture can be thoroughly practiced
> >in NYC. Permaculture can be practiced anywhere whether you live in a
> >60th-floor apartment (ever heard of organic hydroponics?, aquaponics?) or
> >on a 10000 acre cattle ranch in the middle of Iowa. No matter where you
> >go, there you are.***
> >
> >Certainly, different aspects of PC can be practiced anywhere. But, how
> >sustainable is an apt on the 60th floor, even the 3rd floor? And
> >particularly if there's no energy to pump water? No water... no
> >hydroponics or aquaponics... or people.
> >Without energy, no elevators. Do you walk up and down 60 flights of stairs
> >every time you want to go outdoors, or to the garden which might be in
> >zone 10?
> >At best, PCizing a high rise apt seems like an acceptable interim
> >strategy. It seems that it might be difficult to be in touch with Earth
> >when one is not in touch with Earth, but 20, 40, 60 ft above her.
> >I applaud anyone who attempts PC in the city, much less an apt building,
> >but I find it really hard to imagine providing all (or even a majority) of
> >one's needs in an apt.
> >I visited some of the links to the 'green' apts in NYC. I don't mean to
> >minimize or be critical, so don't hear it that way, but, does each apt
> >need its own washer and dryer? Were they designed for cross ventilation?
> >The photos didn't look 'green' to me. In fact I saw no green space and
> >very few trees. I saw many things that could've been designed differently
> >and better.
> >I look forward to hearing from folks in NYC, or any city for that matter,
> >about things they figure out.
> >Deborah
> >
> >
> >Why debate whether it can be done, just go and do it, do something new and
> >innovative.
> >
> >  ----- Original Message -----
> >  From: Lawrence F. London, Jr.<mailto:lfl@intrex.net>
> >  To: permaculture<mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> >  Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 11:35 PM
> >  Subject: Re: [permaculture] Way of life
> >
> >  Tradingpost wrote:
> >  > Perhaps you'll be good enough to show us where in Mollison  &
> >
> >Holmgren's original work that the permaculture
> >
> >  > concept can be lived in the city or under a bridge. I'd like to see
> >
> >it.
> >
> >  Highly presumptious statement. Doesn't matter whether Mollison or anyone
> >else says it, I say that permaculture can
> >  be thoroughly practiced in NYC. Permaculture can be practiced anywhere
> >whether you live in a 60th-floor apartment
> >  (ever heard of organic hydroponics?, aquaponics?) or on a 10000 acre
> >cattle ranch in the middle of Iowa. No matter
> >  where you go, there you are.
> >
> >  Why debate whether it can be done, just go and do it, do something new
> >and innovative.
> >
> >  LL
> >  --
> >  L.F.London
> >  lfl@intrex.net<mailto:lfl@intrex.net>
> >  http://market-farming.com<http://market-farming.com/>
> >  http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech<http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech>
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