permaculture

["Tradingpost" <tradingpost@gilanet.com>]

I agree NYC needs to be made more sustainable.  The question I raise is, is 
that Permaculture? And, is everything automatically Permaculture that's a 
little bit more sustainable than it might have been?  Is there anything that 
doesn't get called Permaculture here? And what about the original concept of 
a whole permaculture system?  Would anyone care to discuss this without 
personal attacks?

paul@largocreekfarms.com
http://medicinehill.net

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 10/25/2004 at 7:25 PM David Neeley wrote:

>Is it really necessary to begin a flame war regarding urban vs. rural
>vs. suburban living and whether or not it can be lived sustainably?
>
>Is it germane to the state of permaculture today to attempt to require
>that the original concept may not be as comprehensive as today we may
>prefer?
>
>There are points both good and bad about urban living. If we were to
>have a clean sheet of paper to design high-density population centers,
>there is little doubt we would want to do it differently--but so what?
>The fact is that we *have* those high-density urban centers as they
>are. The real question, it seems to me, is how to make them as livable
>as possible for their residents while being as sustainable as possible
>now and into the future.
>
>Are such urban centers supportable when a finite resource such as oil
>begins to disappear? Since the bulk of the food and other consumables
>enters the urban centers from a considerable distance away, unless
>changes are made it is doubtful.
>
>At the same time, suburban life seems even more dependent upon the oil
>economy than the urban in many ways.
>
>There are many problems for which there are no convenient and easy
>solutions, and there are some individuals who in their attempts to be
>intellectually challenging may appear to be abrasive or difficult.
>That does not mean either that their questions are not worth
>considering or that they should not attempt to be less irritating to
>those who are inclined to be easily irritated IMHO.
>
>I would think that most list members are far more advanced than am I
>on issues of permaculture...I am only a beginner with the concept and
>practices, after all. However, it is far more interesting to try to
>place some of these issues into a meaningful context and analyze them
>logically rather than engaging in personalities and secondary aspects
>of the main concerns we should all share.
>
>For example: What is the existing condition in New York (in this
>case)...both good and not so good points. Given that the city exists,
>what can be done to make it more self-sustaining than it is and a more
>nourishing environment for its inhabitants? What kinds of changes will
>be most likely to happen through the foreseeable future that will
>impact the city and its inhabitants? Are there specific kinds of
>changes that may be practically brought about that will ameliorate the
>worst likely outcomes?
>
>>From the individual level--what are the relative merits and demerits
>of urban, suburban, and rural life? Is it truly possible to live by
>permaculture principles in any of these milieu? (Even "under a
>bridge?"). If we agree that spreading the "gospel" of permaculture
>more widely among our neighbors is a desirable thing, how is this best
>accomplished?
>
>As a list of individuals interacting with some shared interests, in
>what ways can we discern how best to offer our individual experience
>and expertise to each other in a way best calculated to increase the
>average level of knowledge for all? Or is this even a desirable goal?
>
>Surely any of these--and many other--subjects have much to offer in
>fruitful discussion beyond the unproductive labels and attacks?
>
>Cordially,
>
>David
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