permaculture

["Michael Murphy" <mmurphy@ctsl.com>]

I would say the emphasis in capitalism is on the efficient allocation of 
capital, another scarce resource, to provide the largest possible match or 
overlap with individuals' needs and wants (the sum total of individual 
utility functions).
 
If democracy refers to a social system in which the participants as a whole 
determine how the political system operates, then capitalism refers to an 
economic system in which the participants as a whole determine what will be 
produced by the resources available.
 
It's very hard to have a democracy without capitalism, and very hard to have 
capitalism without a democracy.  Thus the idea that if you want to undermine 
undemocratic governments (China, Cuba), instead of isolating them, you open 
them up to capitalism and democracy will follow.
 
Like democracy, capitalism is a very flawed system - but IMO they're both 
miles ahead of whatever is in second place.
 
Michael Murphy
Bodhitree Farm
Half Moon Bay, California

        -----Original Message----- 
        From: Paul Kosuth [mailto:prkosuth@ll.net] 
        Sent: Thu 7/17/2003 6:39 PM 
        To: permaculture 
        Cc: 
        Subject: Re: [permaculture] Democracy and Capitalism are in 
contradiction
        
        



        robscott@sdf.lonestar.org wrote:
        
        >I use the term "democracy" to refer to a social system in which the
        >participants as a whole determine how the system operates.
        >I use the term "capitalism" to refer to an economic system in which 
the
        >owners of capital determine how the system operates.
        >
        > 
        >
        isn't capitalism the economic system with an emphasis on creating
        surplus value and when this surplus value is sold the benefits go to 
the
        "owners" of the operation rather than the producers of the value (the
        workers.) I strongly agree that capitalism is an economic system but 
not
        with your specific definition. Rather than a linking of democracy and
        capitalism I see both as being very separate. Democracy is a method of
        choice, capitalism is one of the choices. Which, to me, make life in
        good ol' USA so frustrating when our "leaders" equate democracy and
        capitalism. I keep hoping to vote in communism but I'm not holding my
        breath.
        
        Paul Kosuth
        
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