permaculture

[PacificEdge <pacedge@magna.com.au>]

Thanks for your response Scott.

On Monday, November 4, 2002, at 05:16  AM, Scott Pittman wrote:

> At 12:00 PM 11/3/02 -0500, you wrote:
> > My own attitude is not to get hot under the collar about esoteric 
> > content in permaculture

> It is quite obvious to me that once one is deeply involved in living 
> systems that the call of the pagan, the goddess consciousness comes 
> bubbling out of the subconscious and may or may not take root in the 
> waking conscious.  One of the things that so captured me in Bill's 
> courses was how he could evoke these feelings without ever making them 
> explicit, in fact vehemently denying their existence.

This gets to what I said about people interpreting the same things 
differently, through their own frame of reference. What you refer to 
above is what I might describe as the dynamics of complex systems giving 
rise to emergent properties... such as the interaction of minerals and 
soil organisms giving rise to the property of fertility and to the rise 
of the soil as a living matrix. Like spiritual things, our understanding 
of the science of complexity is only partial.

> I followed Bill's curriculum and his pedagogy until the contradictions 
> became too much.  For instance: No matter how much I put down bio 
> dynamics, for not having sufficient data to support their claims, the 
> more I was confronted    with the fact that biodynamic gardens and 
> farms were incredible healthy,  productive, and perfect examples of how 
> a permaculture agriculture should work.

This is analogous to the situation in this country where a growing 
number of conventional Australian farmers have adopted biodynamics and 
demonstrate the benefits you describe above. No-one can describe in 
scientific terms what happens, but the evidence is there, so, assuming 
the evidence is real, a scientific attitude responds not by ridiculing 
but by asking questions.

>  The data on production, and soil fertility exist but how does one 
> quantify vortexian energetics effect on manure stored in a cow's horn?

Exactly. I have no problem with biodynamics and other methods 
undescribed by science being part of courses providing the evidence in 
support of them is covered as well as the unanswered questions about 
them. We can say that there is evidence that something works but we 
don't know how.

> The long and the short of it is that there is spirit, whether you like 
> it or not or whether you can measure or weigh it or not.  The problem 
> is that when you name it you have to defend your name or justify your 
> name, so it is often better to demonstrate spirit rather than giving it 
> a name.
>
> Scott
>
>
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.........................
Russ Grayson
Sydney, Australia
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