pcplantdb

[Chad Knepp <pyg@galatea.org>]

Lawrence F. London, Jr. writes:
 > Chad Knepp wrote:
 > >  > I think we (pfaf) would like to keep NC in there. If there is a
 > >  > need for a comercial use then its posible for the data set to
 > >  > be licence under a different license say BY-SA.
 > 
 > I agree with Richard about keeping the NC in there. Wise,
 > preemptive and protective of one's interests. Don't forget, PFAF is
 > who gathered all that data in te first place.  We, on the other
 > hand have gathered little or none other than what exists in a few
 > small individual collections, none as focused as PFAF.
 > 
 > I saw the gardenbed.com site; what a crap website. An insult to
 > PFAF and the permaculture and natural gardening community.
 > 
 > I stick by NC for PFAF and pcplantdb (* see comment below).
 > 
 > >  > > I think the GPL is a very good license for code with an
 > >  > > excellent legal track record.  It wasn't really designed to
 > >  > > cover other sorts of information so I think the data should
 > >  > > be under either the LGPL or GPL documentation license or
 > >  > > something else.  Since the PFAF dataset is under a CC
 > >  > > license and we are potentially going to incorporate it, it
 > >  > > would be very straight forward to use that.
 > 
 > 
 > >  > > One thing that hasn't been mentioned that I will say for the
 > >  > > sake of thoroughness is the possibility of allowing the
 > >  > > authors themselves to choose the sort of license they would
 > >  > > like and offer a selection of
 > 
 > Not a good idea. Everything should be under the umbrella license
 > chosen by pcplantdb.
 > 
 > > Yes, people can take and *publish* free/copylefted information and
 > > charge money for the act of publishing (depending on the license).
 > > They can also keep this money for themselves.  If someone writes a
 > > better interface to your data and charges for the interface I don't
 > > see anything wrong with it.  However, if they are modifying the
 > > dataset and not freely publishing the modifications they are probably
 > > in violation... specifically the SA clause of the CC-BY-NC-SA.
 > 
 > What does SA stand for?

The SA stands for Share Alike and means derivative works must
keep the same license.  

 > > I don't think the CC license violates any SF policy.  They are
 > > probably referring to restrictions that would disallow any/reasonable
 > > use by commercial entities.
 > 
 > > Today, Richard Morris writes,
 > >  > !! Implications for pcplantdb
 > >  > Atribution - basically means we have to record who has contributed.
 > >  > Could become tricky if lots of people start contributing. How do we 
 > 
 > >  > record who did what? An easy solution is to put a list of 
 > > contributors 
 > >  > at the end of each page.
 > 
 > This is a great idea. Keep it simple. Have contributors fill out a
 > form that will append their namess to a list of contributors. What
 > about an extra data field in a plant record, for the contributor?

Yes, all this would happen automatically though with no active effort
on the part of the contributor.  Any changes/additions by a registered
user would add that author to the copyright of the element in
question.  

 > > Yes, I've discussed this issue before and the tradeoffs of doing it
 > > the easy way or recording individual edits.  I currently lean in favor
 > > of the easy way.
 > >  
 > >  > No-Commercial - not a "free" license as we place a restriction on 
 > > use. 
 > >  > But it would restrict practices such as taking the dataset
 > >  > and putting it on an advertising driven website.
 > 
 > Like gardenbed.com. This is becoming a widespread practive among
 > people looking for easy ways to make money off the Web, sometimes
 > real good money, with little or no work, i.e. Ebay and Amazon sales
 > commissions.  Commonplace nowadays.

I am still not sure what is up with gardenbed.com.  I wasn't actually
patient enough to be able to wade through the swill to read anything
useful.  Did they steal someone's data?  Is it PFAF data?  If so are
they violating the license?

 > >  > If we do not go with NC then pfaf will very likely incorperate
 > >  > additional data back into main pfaf dataset and distribute it on CD
 > >  > for profit. Might actually prevent forking of dataset.
 > 
 > * That is something to consider so I might back off support of NC for this 
 > reason.

Although I pasted a lot of old stuff in there I'm in favor of the NC
clause.  I think I probably made it rather confusing.  The current
proposal on the table is:

   Our project [HG] will license the code under the CC-GPL and the
   dataset under the CC-BY-NC-SA.

It sounds like are more or less in favor of adopting the CC-BY-NC-SA
license for the dataset.  Am I correct?  I am assuming that the CC-GPL
is also ok for the code base.  Yes?

 > > I've had some more thoughts about our process based on comments people
 > > have been making about keeping parts of the list open or closed.  My
 > > personal preference is that all elements of the list should be open.
 > 
 > I am against this & think we should continue approving
 > subscriptions and disllowing public access to the message archives
 > but I will abide by consensus on this. Just let me know how you
 > want this list configured.

I have a generalized belief that information should be free, so when
given the option I always state that preference.  I think I was
responding out of a rooted dogma and don't actually know much about
the details of mailing list configurations or the possibilities of
abuse a different configuration would open it up to.  So long as the
information is reasonably accessible I'm happy.  

 > I would suggest using this list as the main & techie forum and
 > starting a new one for the general public, like pcplantdb-public.
 > What do you think? Anyone want to be a moderator for this and/or
 > the new public list?
 >
 >  > That said I think that the group that makes decisions about the
 >  > project should be defined and closed although I think it should
 >  > be
 > 
 > There should be a decision-making group and a suggestion-making
 > group.
 >
 >  > open to input from the list and the larger permaculture
 >  > community.
 > 
 > I should probably have the new list created soon but need some
 > suggestions as to name. You should make plans to post to it and the
 > main PC forum frequently to keep the permaculture community
 > informed and elicit feedback.

This is the need I was anticipating when I suggested creating a
hg-tech/dev list.  Already our emails are reaching a length, depth,
and frequency that may decrease interest in this forum.  I've been
waiting for the flood of *unsubscribe* messages that usually come
after bursts of list activity.  I still am undecided about whether we
really need it.  I'm assuming John's issue tracker will mail to a
non-general list.

 > > I've spent the last four years living in various consensus
 > > decision making communities and although I personally believe in
 > > the process, I think its effectiveness is limited to small
 > > relatively homogeneous groups or larger diverse groups with gobs
 > > of time and an insatiable lust for meetings;-) Community,
 > > diversity, and consensus is a very *up* issue for me personally
 > > and I've been planning to write an article for Communities
 > > Mag. about diversity and community including a new social model
 > > for community structure that specifically addresses and
 > > embraces/accommodates the aspects of difference within a
 > > community... ok, now I'm off topic.
 > 
 > Can you offer any creative suggestions for decision-making about HG
 > in this list based on ideas in your article?

Here are a couple of things related to efficiency that are probably
obvious to people who have spent time in groups.  There is a direct
correlation between group size and diversity*!* dependent, of course, on
the method of group composition.  A selective group will be more
homogeneous.  There is a direct correlation between group
difference/diversity and the time it takes to conduct effective
consensus process and therefore an indirect correlation between group
time and group size.  As this relates to HG, I suspect that we
probably represent a high level of diversity because the primary
method of group selection was an interest in permaculture and
computers.  We will have more effecient process if we keep the group
small.  One element that works in our favor is that we have limited
investment (this isn't our lives we are talking about) and a small set
of decisions to make (this isn't our lives...).

*!* Diversity is a complex word I'm using loosely to mean demographic,
emotional, value differences.  It is often used to mean one or more of
these meanings at different times which is makes using it difficult
and confusing.  Anyway, ya have to wait for the article.

So I will put out another proposal:

  The consensus decision making group of HG will consist of Steph,
  Rich, John, Lawrence, and Chad as well as Paula and Robin if they
  would like to participate this way.

BTW: What's up with Robin Williamson?  Haven't heard from him in a bit.

 > >  >  Someone asked, "But is a comprehensive permaculture database
 > >  >  the= goal of this project? Stephanie?"  Not what we got
 > >  >  funded to do.  This sounds like Lawrence=E2=80=99s ultimate
 > >  >  goal.  HG is specifically about creating= a database of
 > >  >  information regarding relationships between flora.  If it
 > >  >  grows to be a comprehensive permaculture database (as part of
 > >  >  Lawrence's larger intents), that would be ideal!  But
 > >  >  that=E2=80=99s not the goal of this particular project, at
 > >  >  least not at this point.
 > > 
 > > Not just Lawrence.  I'm in this because I think it can go a lot
 > > farther than plants.  Because of this I think that using plants in the
 > > name is a bit short sited.  Why choose a name that when in a year from
 > > now we will (generous foundations willing) be adding animals,
 > > articles, and garden logs or whatever.  Sure we are starting small but
 > > let's keep thinking big.
 > 
 > Amen to that big time. Open Permaculture Database Project (OPCDBP
 > maybe). Best to keep the word "database" in any name we choose
 > because people in the know KNOW that the best online info sites ARE
 > DATABASES.
 > 
 > For the record, I side with Chad on this project ultimately
 > becoming a comprehensive permaculture resource database. Never know
 > what software will be available in the near future or changes in
 > the way the public accesses the Web. It may become more than a
 > "database" in the conventional sense. Think streaming video and
 > audio; downoadable multimedia resources to burn onto dvd's, huge
 > photo collections to accompany datasets and flat file databases
 > contained in "a Website on a CD or a DVD".
 > 
 > > I've also said before that I would be interested in adding
 > > features that I want but aren't in the written in grant or the
 > > will of the whole group on my own time.  It would be pretty easy
 > > to add animals and insects to the initial database and it would
 > > look pretty neat in the GBI to see lettuce --> slug --> duck or
 > > something.  I was assuming people weren't opposed to me doing
 > > more than the grant specified on my own?
 > 
 > I am very supportive of your doing this and will contribute extra
 > hours of my time to help out any way I can.  I will also donate
 > $250 to you when you start work on any of this. Anyone else willing
 > to follow my lead on this with donations of your own?  I wil also
 > provide domain names and commercial webspace if needed.

I'm touched.

 > >  > Week 2: August 1-7
 > >  > 
 > >  >     . Whoever is in charge of shared web workspace (as determined 
 > > Week 1)
 > >  >       creates it
 > 
 > 
 >  > Sounds like this is done.
 > 
 > Need the project domain first or can just use ibiblio temporarily
 > as in: http://www.ibiblio.org/pcplantdb Let me know if you want me
 > to have this account and webspace created - those sharing it will
 > need ibiblio accounts and be on a group permissions list.
 > 
 > > 
 > >  >     . Chad and Rich
 > >  >          o a working database (with no real data) with php connection 
 > > and
 > >  >            simple front end (basically just checking that the 
 > > different
 > >  >            bits can work together)
 > > 
 > > This sounds like 1 of my plan.  I think this is all me.
 > > 
 > >  >          o issue tracker working, cvs working, zope working
 > 
 > In answer to John's question, I will inquire whether Zope is
 > offered by ibiblio and if not could it be, maybe just for our
 > project in case they don't want to make it generally available to
 > other ibiblio content providers because of allleged maintenance
 > problems for their staff (don't know if this is still the case as
 > it may have been a long while ago). Do you need Bugzilla also?
 > John?

I would be surprised if they didn't have already or couldn't do zope
for us.  If not, with enough quota and shell access we can do it
ourselves.

-- 
Chad Knepp
python -c 'import base64;print base64.decodestring("cHlnQGdhbGF0ZWEub3Jn")'