pcplantdb

["Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>]

Chad Knepp wrote:
> Sure.  On July 2nd Richard Morris writes,
>  > Chad Knepp wrote:
>  > > If we use the PFAF dataset we will probably have to use the BY-NC-SA
>  > > unless we can convince PFAF to drop the NC.  The reason I don't think
>  > > that the non-commercial clause is important is that if you are already
>  > > providing the data in a free form no one needs to purchase commercial
>  > > versions to get the information.  If someone wants to publish a book
>  > > with the information I think it is a win-win situation.  They may make
>  > > a little money on it, but having the information in a format we can't
>  > > provide is a good thing for people that want to read a book with their

>  > > breakfast and not bang on a keyboard.  The only sticky situation I can
>  > > foresee that not having the NC clause could lead to is if someone took
>  > > the information and added additional but proprietary information and
>  > > then sold it... kind of like the PFAF data with images.  I don't think

Highly likely.

>  > > this would ever happen because if we have the entire permaculture
>  > > community collaborating on it we would have a lock on all the good
>  > > sources of information anyway.  This is also why we don't have to buy

Totally a pipe dream.

>  > > the PFAF images, because I'm certain people will start taking pictures
>  > > and uploading them as soon as we make it possible.
>  > 
>  > I think we (pfaf) would like to keep NC in there. If there is a
>  > need for a comercial use then its posible for the data set to
>  > be licence under a different license say BY-SA.

I agree with Richard about keeping the NC in there. Wise, preemptive and 
protective
of one's interests. Don't forget, PFAF is who gathered all that data in te 
first place.
We, on the other hand have gathered little or none other than what exists in 
a few small individual collections,
none as focused as PFAF.

I saw the gardenbed.com site; what a crap website. An insult to PFAF and the 
permaculture and natural gardening community.

I stick by NC for PFAF and pcplantdb (* see comment below).

>  > > I think the GPL is a very good license for code with an excellent
>  > > legal track record.  It wasn't really designed to cover other sorts of
>  > > information so I think the data should be under either the LGPL or GPL
>  > > documentation license or something else.  Since the PFAF dataset is
>  > > under a CC license and we are potentially going to incorporate it, it
>  > > would be very straight forward to use that.


>  > > One thing that hasn't been mentioned that I will say for the sake of
>  > > thoroughness is the possibility of allowing the authors themselves to
>  > > choose the sort of license they would like and offer a selection of

Not a good idea. Everything should be under the umbrella license chosen by 
pcplantdb.

> Yes, people can take and *publish* free/copylefted information and
> charge money for the act of publishing (depending on the license).
> They can also keep this money for themselves.  If someone writes a
> better interface to your data and charges for the interface I don't
> see anything wrong with it.  However, if they are modifying the
> dataset and not freely publishing the modifications they are probably
> in violation... specifically the SA clause of the CC-BY-NC-SA.

What does SA stand for?

> I don't think the CC license violates any SF policy.  They are
> probably referring to restrictions that would disallow any/reasonable
> use by commercial entities.

> Today, Richard Morris writes,
>  > !! Implications for pcplantdb
>  > Atribution - basically means we have to record who has contributed.
>  > Could become tricky if lots of people start contributing. How do we 

>  > record who did what? An easy solution is to put a list of contributors 
>  > at the end of each page.

This is a great idea. Keep it simple. Have contributors fill out a form that 
will append their namess
to a list of contributors. What about an extra data field in a plant record, 
for the contributor?

> Yes, I've discussed this issue before and the tradeoffs of doing it
> the easy way or recording individual edits.  I currently lean in favor
> of the easy way.
>  
>  > No-Commercial - not a "free" license as we place a restriction on use. 
>  > But it would restrict practices such as taking the dataset
>  > and putting it on an advertising driven website.

Like gardenbed.com. This is becoming a widespread practive among people 
looking for easy ways to
make money off the Web, sometimes real good money, with little or no work, 
i.e. Ebay and Amazon sales commissions.
Commonplace nowadays.

>  > If we do not go with NC then pfaf will very likely incorperate
>  > additional data back into main pfaf dataset and distribute it on CD
>  > for profit. Might actually prevent forking of dataset.

* That is something to consider so I might back off support of NC for this 
reason.

> I've had some more thoughts about our process based on comments people
> have been making about keeping parts of the list open or closed.  My
> personal preference is that all elements of the list should be open.

I am against this & think we should continue approving subscriptions and 
disllowing public access to the message archives
but I will abide by consensus on this. Just let me know how you want this 
list configured.

I would suggest using this list as the main & techie forum and starting a new 
one for the general public, like pcplantdb-public.
What do you think? Anyone want to be a moderator for this and/or the new 
public list?

> That said I think that the group that makes decisions about the
> project should be defined and closed although I think it should be

There should be a decision-making group and a suggestion-making group.
> open to input from the list and the larger permaculture community.

I should probably have the new list created soon but need some suggestions as to name. You should make plans to post to it and the main PC 
forum frequently to keep the permaculture community informed and elicit feedback.

> I've spent the last four years living in various consensus decision
> making communities and although I personally believe in the process, I
> think its effectiveness is limited to small relatively homogeneous
> groups or larger diverse groups with gobs of time and an insatiable
> lust for meetings;-) Community, diversity, and consensus is a very

> *up* issue for me personally and I've been planning to write an
> article for Communities Mag. about diversity and community including a
> new social model for community structure that specifically addresses
> and embraces/accommodates the aspects of difference within a
> community... ok, now I'm off topic.

Can you offer any creative suggestions for decision-making about HG in this 
list
based on ideas in your article?

>  >  Someone asked, "But is a comprehensive permaculture database the=
>  >  goal of this project? Stephanie?"  Not what we got funded to do.  This sounds 
>  >  like Lawrence=E2=80=99s ultimate goal.  HG is specifically about creating=
>  >  a database of information regarding relationships between flora.  If it 
>  >  grows to be a comprehensive permaculture database (as part of Lawrence's
>  >  larger intents), that would be ideal!  But that=E2=80=99s not the goal of this 
>  >  particular project, at least not at this point.
>
> Not just Lawrence.  I'm in this because I think it can go a lot
> farther than plants.  Because of this I think that using plants in the
> name is a bit short sited.  Why choose a name that when in a year from
> now we will (generous foundations willing) be adding animals,
> articles, and garden logs or whatever.  Sure we are starting small but
> let's keep thinking big.

Amen to that big time. Open Permaculture Database Project (OPCDBP maybe). Best to keep 
the word "database" in any name we choose
because people in the know KNOW that the best online info sites ARE DATABASES.

For the record, I side with Chad on this project ultimately becoming a 
comprehensive
permaculture resource database. Never know what software will be available in 
the near future or changes in the way the public accesses
the Web. It may become more than a "database" in the conventional sense. Think streaming video and audio; downoadable multimedia resources 
to burn onto dvd's, huge photo collections to accompany datasets and flat file databases contained in "a Website on a CD or a DVD".

> I've also said before that I would be interested in adding features
> that I want but aren't in the written in grant or the will of the
> whole group on my own time.  It would be pretty easy to add animals
> and insects to the initial database and it would look pretty neat in
> the GBI to see lettuce --> slug --> duck or something.  I was assuming
> people weren't opposed to me doing more than the grant specified on my
> own?

I am very supportive of your doing this and will contribute extra hours of my 
time to help out any way I can.
I will also donate $250 to you when you start work on any of this. Anyone 
else willing to follow my lead on this with donations of your own?
I wil also provide domain names and commercial webspace if needed.

>  > Week 2: August 1-7
>  > 
>  >     . Whoever is in charge of shared web workspace (as determined Week 1)
>  >       creates it


> Sounds like this is done.

Need the project domain first or can just use ibiblio temporarily as in:
http://www.ibiblio.org/pcplantdb
Let me know if you want me to have this account and webspace created - those sharing it will need ibiblio accounts and be on a group 
permissions list.

>  >     . Chad and Rich
>  >          o a working database (with no real data) with php connection and
>  >            simple front end (basically just checking that the different
>  >            bits can work together)
>
> This sounds like 1 of my plan.  I think this is all me.
>
>  >          o issue tracker working, cvs working, zope working

In answer to John's question, I will inquire whether Zope is offered by 
ibiblio and if not could it be, maybe just for our project
in case they don't want to make it generally available to other ibiblio content providers because of allleged maintenance problems for their 
staff (don't know if this is still the case as it may have been a long while ago). Do you need Bugzilla also? John?

>  >     . Stephanie
>  >          o write first draft of email describing project to PC lists, sends
>  >            to team for feedback
>  >          o write up description user interface/experience, send to list
>  >          o re-create project plan with new project management software, if
>  >            need be
>  >     . Lawrence
>  >          o write a clear description of relationship between
>  >            PCKnowledgebase and HG (if separate entities)

>  >     . Stephanie
>  >          o synthesizes feedback from PC lists, sends to group
>  >          o if necessary, drafts another email for PC lists, asking more
>  >            specific questions

LL
--
L.F.London
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech