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livingontheland - Re: [Livingontheland] Hydroponics & Soil Organisms

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Subject: Healthy soil and sustainable growing

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  • From: Diane Kann <dianek59@gmail.com>
  • To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Hydroponics & Soil Organisms
  • Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 07:44:28 -0400

Paul,

I appreciate you sending the links.  I will be reading through over the next few days as we prepare for storms on the way (we are in central Florida).  I don't expect any major storms, but we prep, just in case (we took a big hit in 2004 hurricanes, even though we were prepped--so we take the storms seriously).

Thanks again,
Diane K
very THANKFUL homeschool Mom to 9 blessings in
Christmas, FL
http://hocfarms.com

On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 6:30 PM, Tradingpost <tradingpost@lobo.net> wrote:

You write
>Soil in itself is inert but it does hold a huge amount of nutrients,
>including microbials.  There we agree.

No, we do not agree. Soil is not inert. Soil is a living ecosystem. And soil microorganisms that form symbiotic relationships with plants cannot live without soil in anaerobic mediums like water.

Repeat: Soil is NOT inert. That is the root fallacy that hydroponics depends on for its profits. That soil doesn't really DO anything so nutrients in water does just as well. Junk science for profits.


from http://www.energybulletin.net/node/23428

# Some bacteria and fungi form mutualistic associations with plant roots. Both plants and micro-organisms benefit.
   * Plant roots exude proteins, sugars and carbohydrates ("cakes and cookies") which attract beneficial micro-organisms.
   * Nitrogen-fixing bacteria inhabit the roots of leguminous plants.
   * About 80% of world's plants have symbiotic relationships with fungi (mycorrhizae).

As I stated earlier, these microbial symbioses cannot occur in water, in anaerobic mediums.

See also Ecology in the Underworld
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/304/5677/1613

Interactions and Self-Organization in the Soil-Microbe Complex
I. M. Young and J. W. Crawford
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/304/5677/1634

this site has very long lists of references to study
Soil food web - opening the lid of the black box
http://www.energybulletin.net/node/23428


paul tradingpost@lobo.net


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 8/16/2009 at 5:46 PM Diane Kann wrote:

>I'm not trying to argue with you and I agree that there are those that
>hold
>your philosophy as to soil grown is best.  But there are those, including
>myself, who hold that hydroponics can be just as good as soil grown.  Soil
>in itself is inert but it does hold a huge amount of nutrients, including
>microbials.  There we agree.  However, water is also capable of handling
>the
>job.  I've studied hydroponics and aquaponics for several years before
>making the jump and for us, it was the right move.  Is it the best for
>everyone?  Probably not.
>
>History that I have studied does show the hanging gardens and Mayan
>cultures
>to have been truly hydroponic.  If you have proof that they were not, I'd
>certainly be open to learning.
>
>Again, Paul, I'm not trying to argue with you.  We obviously have differing
>viewpoints, although I think we agree on trying to keep our soils as
>natural
>and healthy as possible.    Our pastures are kept naturally fertilized and
>we use rotational grazing to keep them well.  For produce, we prefer
>hydroponics.  It works for us.
>
>Diane K
>very THANKFUL homeschool Mom to 9 blessings in
>Christmas, FL
>http://hocfarms.com
>
>On Sat, Aug 15, 2009 at 11:25 PM, Tradingpost <tradingpost@lobo.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> You wrote
>> >Its also important to remember that the purpose of soil is to hold up
>the
>> >plants and to hold nutrients that are then taken up by the plants.  In
>our
>> >case, we use other substrates to hold up plants and supply the nutrients
>> in
>> >with the water.
>>
>> Sorry but that's the old view promoted by all peddlers of hydroponic
>> equipment and supplies, hundreds of them if Google is any indication.
>It's
>> also the old philosophy of chemical agribusiness. The idea that soil is
>> nothing but an inert way to hold up plants and hold nutrients for them
>has
>> been discarded by decades of soil science. Soil is an active process
>> nurturing an incredible microbial population that produces nutrients in
>> symbiosis with plants. This process cannot take place in water. On this
>> subject I'd suggest starting with The Soil and Health: A Study of Organic
>> Agriculture, by Sir Albert Howard, 1947.
>>
>> And I must add, the hanging gardens of Babylon and the Mayan civilization
>> were not hydroponic - contrary to the claims of the peddlers. They grew
>on
>> islands in soil.
>>
>> We have customers who won't buy tomatoes unless we assure them it's not
>> hydroponic. And we offer them samples on the spot, and they have their
>> answer. Of course after you spend so much setting up hydroponic you can't
>> say anything but how great it is. Otherwise ...
>>
>> paul tradingpost@lobo.net
>>
>>
>> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>>
>> On 8/15/2009 at 4:38 PM Diane Kann wrote:
>>
>> >We have not had any brix testing done, though are considering.  I know
>> >that
>> >some of the universities have done various tests (they have the $$ to do
>> >so!) including brix.  I believe Disney's Epcot has, too.
>> >
>> >As I said, we have many happy customers who come here, bypassing farms
>> >growing in the ground, to purchase our produce as they believe it is
>more
>> >flavorful and nutritious than the other produce they can find (at
>> >groceries,
>> >but also farmers markets, coops, and area farms)  Is hydroponics always
>> >better?  I doubt it.  But it certainly can be very competitive.
>Expensive
>> >to set up?  In many cases, though there are those who have set ups that
>> >were
>> >low initial cost.  And traditional?  Actually, hydroponics is very
>old---
>> >the hanging gardens of Babylon, the Mayan civilization,....there are
>> >examples from long ago when hydroponics was successfully incorporated
>into
>> >agricultural life.
>> >
>> >Its also important to remember that the purpose of soil is to hold up
>the
>> >plants and to hold nutrients that are then taken up by the plants.  In
>our
>> >case, we use other substrates to hold up plants and supply the nutrients
>> in
>> >with the water.  Similar philosophy but different technique.
>> >
>> >Diane K
>> >very THANKFUL homeschool Mom to 9 blessings in
>> >Christmas, FL
>> >http://hocfarms.com
>> >
>> >On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 1:39 AM, <realfood@wonderfulfarm.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Have you done brix testing on your veggies Diane?
>> >>
>> >> Blessings,
>> >>
>> >> Aliza
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> “Don’t ask what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive, and go
>> do
>> >> it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive.”
>Howard
>> >> Thurman
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>  -------- Original Message --------
>> >> Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Hydroponics & Soil Organisms
>> >> From: Diane Kann <dianek59@gmail.com>
>> >> Date: Thu, August 13, 2009 12:22 pm
>> >> To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing
>> >> <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
>> >>
>> >> We grow just about everything using hydro  or aquaponics.  Lettuce,
>> >> spinach, and most greens are naturals for water systems, but most
>plants
>> >can
>> >> be grown very well, depending on how they are kept.  A big advantage
>of
>> >> hydroponics or aquaponics is that we can completely control how much
>of
>> >> which nutrients a plant is offered and also the amount of water it
>> >> receives.  Some plants do best with less nutrient, others more.  Some
>> >need a
>> >> lot of water, others less.  Tomatoes, for instance, are heavy feeders
>> and
>> >> fruit best when water levels are more consistant.  We can monitor all
>of
>> >> that and ensure best conditions.  By using separate timers, we can
>water
>> >our
>> >> tomatoes more than our radishes.  Everyone gets ideal levels.  Our
>soil
>> >here
>> >> in Florida needs a great deal of work to grow things well.  Our
>pastures
>> >are
>> >> good, but we would need to irrigate and heavily fertilize for
>> vegetables.
>> >> Yes, we are able to grow more product in a smaller space (though that
>is
>> >not
>> >> a huge benefit for us as we have 50 acres, except that we can use less
>> >shade
>> >> cloth as needed).
>> >> Our big benefits come in the perfection of the product--our customers
>> >come
>> >> to us because our product does have superior nutrition and flavor.
>That
>> >> comes with careful monitoring of the systems, of course and it is very
>> >> possible to water or feed at less or more than optimal amounts (water
>> >logged
>> >> fruit and veggies are just not that flavorful!!).  Soil grown in more
>> >> forgiving in some of this, as it allows for more drainage and plants
>> >> naturally pull in the nutrients they need (assuming they are there and
>> >> assuming that the pH levels are in proper range, etc)  But properly
>> done,
>> >> hydoponics is an important growing system that has been proven to be
>> even
>> >> more beneficial in depleted areas.
>> >> As for organic, there are organic fertilizers that some of us use and
>> >> plenty of organic pesticide options.  We maintain organic standards,
>in
>> >> additon to being hydroponic.  It is actually easier in some
>ways--since
>> >our
>> >> plants are out of the soil, we avoid most soil born pests and disease.
>> >> Also, we can handpick the few windblown weeds that enter the system.
>>  The
>> >> set up cost is high for most types of systems and it can be more work
>> >than
>> >> growing in the ground.  But we see a greater yield and a longer
>growing
>> >> season than ground methods.
>> >> Is hydroponics for everyone?  Probably not.  But it can be at least as
>> >good
>> >> as ground growing and in some areas, is far superior.
>> >>
>> >> Diane K
>> >> very THANKFUL homeschool Mom to 9 blessings in
>> >> Christmas, FL
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 1:18 PM, Tradingpost <tradingpost@lobo.net>
>> >wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> But are you growing aquatic plants that naturally grow in water? I've
>> >>> always wondered why people try to grow soil plants in water when the
>> >produce
>> >>> doesn't taste right or have the same nutritional value. And how the
>> >downside
>> >>> can justify all the added expense of hydroponics. If you're looking
>for
>> >a
>> >>> genuine space saving system of growing, I have it.
>> >>>
>> >>> paul tradingpost@lobo.net
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>> >>>
>> >>> On 8/13/2009 at 5:30 AM Diane Kann wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> >We do mostly hydroponics using a fish based fertilizer but are
>> steadily
>> >>> >moving toward more aquaponics where living fish feed the plants and
>> the
>> >>> >plants cleanse the water for the fish.  A good aquaponics system can
>> >be a
>> >>> >complete eco-system.  For a school project, I might lean more toward
>> >the
>> >>> >aquaponics model.  Fish can be grown for food (tilapia are popular)
>or
>> >>> >simply for nutrient production (some use goldfish or koi for
>straight
>> >>> >production)
>> >>> >
>> >>> >Diane K
>> >>> >very THANKFUL homeschool Mom to 9 blessings in
>> >>> >Christmas, FL
>> >>> >http://hocfarms.com
>> >>> >
>> >>> >On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Marty Kraft <martyk@allspecies.org>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>> >
>> >>> >> I have been helping a school start a no-till organic garden. Now
>> they
>> >>> >> are applying a for a grant doing hydroponics. Are there hydroponic
>> >>> >> systems that use various beneficial microorganisms to feed the
>> >>> >> plants? I must admit to some prejudice about avoiding soil to
>> produce
>> >>> >> plants but have a small window of open mindedness on the subject.
>I
>> >>> >> know most are busy but experience or references i would be
>> >appreciated.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> Marty Kraft
>> >>> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >>> >>
>> >>> >
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