Internetworkers: http://www.ibiblio.org/internetworkers/

[Steven Champeon <schampeo AT hesketh.com>]

on Mon, Feb 09, 2004 at 05:38:42PM -0500, Shea Tisdale wrote:
> Steve Champeon wrote:
> > on Sat, Feb 07, 2004 at 02:41:50PM -0500, Shea Tisdale wrote:
> >> On its own this makes the entire case that the general principles upon
> >> our government was founded were "the general principles of Christianity,
> >> in which all those sects were united.in Marjorities sufficient to assert
> >> and maintain her Independence"
> > 
> > Well, yes and no. Actually, it merely makes the claim. It doesn't argue
> > much of anything, and it doesn't enumerate what these principles are, or
> > why they should be considered the province of Christianity, rather than
> > that of reason. But you can believe what you like, I suppose.
> 
> Thanks for allowing me to believe what I like...

No problem. I obviously can't convince you otherwise, so you may as well
continue on believing the same nonsense. You obviously don't understand
any of the quotes I sent you, and you seem more interested in twisting
my words into supporting your case, so I'll ditch the quotes and hope my
words are clear enough not to be misread this time.

The only point I cared to make was this: your belief that the US
Government was "founded on Christian principles" is misinformed and
obviously willfully so. The degree to which you seem compelled to insult
me and ignore my arguments just makes me wonder if you care at all about
the truth. So I won't waste much more of my time here.

As others here have stated, and as has been stated in many forums, by
authorities far more trusted and informed than I, the Founding Fathers
were, almost to the last man, Deists, usually Masons, only nominally
"Christian" either in terms of self identification or as so-called by
others, were sickened by the carnage of the previous century's European
religious wars, and wanted nothing to do with any government founded on
any principle but that of the Law. In short, they were likely among some
of the least "Christian" of people of their day and age; they were
either ambivalent or hostile to what they saw as a corrupt and
irrational enslavement of humanity by clergymen and the insane. Of
course, their environment was largely Christian, owing to history, and
their educations were also, due to the prevalence of colleges whose
original purpose was to train the clergy. But they were free to doubt,
they certainly weren't blind to the worst sides of the faith, and they
built this government on the principles of rationality and the rule of a
Law created by the people.

As the Law dates back to Hammurabi, Moses, and other non-Christian
sources, and implies a strongly /secular/, rational basis on which to
found a government /by the consent of the governed/ (which implies no
otherworldly source of power) it seems laughable to claim that somehow
"Christianity", however you define it, has anything to do with it, any
more than wearing knee pants and stockings and wigs has anything to do
with it. Especially so, when you consider that the founders didn't even
mention religion in the Constitution until the discussion of the Bill of
Rights, wherein the very first Amendment limits the powers of Congress
such that it has no power at all over "an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof". It never mentions God, nor
Jesus, nor Christ, nor makes any mention of the Gospels.

If anything, the USG was deliberately founded on agnostic principles,
recognizing that the government had /no right/ to interfere in anyone's 
choice of faith or belief, and making that recognition explicit in the
First Amendment.

I ask you to enumerate the so-called "Christian principles" you seem so
convinced are the core of our government, and show how those principles
were either unique to, or significant to, Christianity.

I hope the choice of Web site doesn't offend, but here are some more
quotes regarding the founding fathers:

 http://religion.aynrand.org/quotes.html

Suffice it to say that I'm convinced that though some of the Founding
Fathers were perhaps nominally Christian, the principles they gave our
government have little to do with any Christian principle, and I am glad
of it. The thought of reason triumphing over pastoral mysticism and
deliberate illogic makes me happy. Perhaps you prefer the opposite.

In any event, you've made your preference clear; I can only wonder at
the rationale (if you'll forgive the term) that might lay behind your
desire to believe something so irrelevant and false.

Steve

-- 
hesketh.com/inc. v: (919) 834-2552 f: (919) 834-2554 w: http://hesketh.com
Book publishing is second only to furniture delivery in slowness. -b. schneier