Internetworkers: http://www.ibiblio.org/internetworkers/

["Chris Owens" <internetworkers_box AT reality-v2-dev.com>]

Not to continue the thread much farther, but I had believed it to be
over, why not catch up to the thread before posting?

I don't take it as a personal insult.  In my opinion, they serve their
purpose just like PHP.  I've only spoken about being objective when
deciding on a toolset except when there was excessive bias against a set
of products without due consideration to the situation.



Chris Owens
chris.owens AT reality-v2.com
919.345.4339 mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Medical Illustration [mailto:druid AT email.unc.edu] 
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 3:53 PM
To: InterNetWorkers
Subject: [internetworkers] RE: Think Globally, Act Locally

All right, 

This is starting to get annoying.  I've seen at least three copies of
this
so far.  

He is allowed to be prejudiced against M$ products just as you are
allowed
to support them.  There is no need for you or he to direct personal
insults
to each other because you support different products.

I personally think Microsoft sucks-- Every single one of their damn
products
sucks, in my opinion.  That is not a personal insult towards you, and if
you
think that my opinion is wrong, then you can say so, but do not call me
or
anyone else prejudiced or stupid in the process.

And if someone calls you prejudiced or stupid, then as you say below,
take
it OFF the list.  You do not need to defend yourself in front of us,
unless
your confidence in your own manhood is really that small.

And fucking stop cussing on the goddamned list, you little shits!

Drew


On 9/13/01 11:55 AM, "Chris Owens"
<internetworkers_box AT reality-v2-dev.com>
wrote:

> *Whine* *Whine* *Whine* you little bitch.  Take it off list and email
me
> directly with your childish insults.
> 
> I merely commented on your obvious bigotry against all things MS,
which
> is as childish and moronic as the email to which I am unfortunately
> granting some dignity by responding.
> 
> I think that you are sorely overreacting to a simple retort to your
> ranting about MS, and shouldn't take things too personally.  I meant
to
> include all those that rant and rave with jibberish regarding MS and
> attempt to impose some sense of importance to their holy jihad against
> of all things a corporation which they liken to be the antichrist.
> 
> That said, I'll step down to your level for a moment:
> 
> ----
> FUCK YOU! You whiny little bitch.
> ----
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chris Owens
> chris.owens AT reality-v2.com
> 919.345.4339 mobile
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David R. Matusiak [mailto:matusiak AT hotmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 11:29 AM
> To: InterNetWorkers
> Subject: [internetworkers] Think Globally, Act Locally
> 
> Chris Owen (heretofor referred to as "DickLick"),
> 
> okay, you fucking prick -- now you've decided to associate me
personally
> with some language which I find highly offensive; namely "bigotry,"
> "zealot," and "pseudo-religious pontification." I find this completely
> unnecessary, as I was responding to someone elses inquiry and was not
> addressing you in any way. You may not agree with what I have to say,
> but
> that gives you no right to attach harmful labels to my person.
> 
> There is plenty of information that goes across this list with which I
> do
> not agree (i.e. the last 10-15 posts from your stupid ass), but I
> usually
> find it better to ignore this stuff than to attempt to throw gasoline
on
> the
> fire.
> 
> You have decided to reference my email and are attempting to discredit
> my
> professional opinion as nothing more than spreading "misinformation."
> You
> attempt to dismiss me as a "zealot," claim that I am making "threats,"
> and
> cast my words in the light of "bigotry." I consider these harsh
> accusations
> to be completely unfounded.
> 
> Perhaps you were able to actually read my entire email and understand
> it.
> Perhaps not. In my email, I clearly noted that I couldn't care less
what
> machines people use to accomplish their work. Additionally, I use all
of
> these systems and more on a daily/weekly basis. I have done so for
> years. I
> think that lends more than a shred of credibility to my technological
> opinion.
> 
> I have tried to understand what the fuck it is that you do over at
> <reality-v2.com>, but it looks like a load of gibberish designed to
> befuddle
> and confuse middle-management into using your crappy tools. I've also
> noted
> that some of your partners (specifically KimbaNet) seem to be pretty
big
> M$
> proponents. I don't know if they expect you to kneel down and suck
> microsoft
> cock occasionally, but it is making you look like a big, foolish,
> single-minded douche bag.
> 
> The reason for this email is not merely a retort to your practiced and
> tired
> words. I felt the need to alert you to the fact that I think you are
> useless. And I would hope that if we were ever to meet in person, that
> you
> would be fortunate enough to have several big friends around to stop
me
> from
> ripping your fucking arms out of their sockets.
> 
> good luck, DickLick.
> d.m.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Owens" <internetworkers_box AT reality-v2-dev.com>
> To: "InterNetWorkers" <internetworkers AT franklin.oit.unc.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 4:58 PM
> Subject: [internetworkers] Re: Database inquiry
> 
> 
>> ARRRGH!!!
>> 
>> Ok, I tried to be civil.  Sheesh!  What a load.
>> 
>> I was with you initially, up until you reached the point of usual
>> bigotry that prevents zealots from being objective.
>> 
>> Mary Beth, my recommendation to you is:
>> 
>> A) Gather your requirements.  There were some good questions and
>> starting points listed.
>> 
>> B) Find out what platform your current hosting company is using.
>> 
>> C) Determine what you're going to have to use after a good analysis
of
>> your needs, and the available products.
>> 
>> Don't be swayed by "Boogey Man" threats, and misinformation based
upon
>> pseudo-religious pontification. You've got other things to take into
>> consideration, things like budget, learning curve, support and
>> maintenance costs, resource allocation and all the other factors that
> go
>> into a total ROI.
>> 
>> Dependent on your needs, Access may be fine for you.  I'm not a big
> fan
>> of it myself, but it may suit your needs.  More than likely, if your
>> hosting provider supports ASP, they probably have a shared SQL Server
>> instance for customer usage.
>> 
>> If speed isn't an issue, by all means go with Apache...  You'll find
>> that the other complaints relating to IIS and its security are
>> proportional since it has such a significantly higher install base...
>> 
>> More than likely, if you're considering cost and wanting an easily
>> maintainable site, you'll go with ASP under IIS unless your hosting
>> provider doesn't offer that and you're stuck with them.
>> 
>> Chris Owens
>> chris.owens AT reality-v2.com
>> 919.345.4339 mobile
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: David R. Matusiak [mailto:matusiak AT hotmail.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 4:23 PM
>> To: InterNetWorkers
>> Subject: [internetworkers] Re: Database inquiry
>> 
>> Mary Beth...
>>     ...what a big question you have...
>> 
>> 
>> before we worry about operating systems and "middleware" and whatnot,
> we
>> must first establish what exactly is the intended purpose and scope
of
>> this
>> project. already we have established the idea that you want
>> dynamically-created web pages that pull info from a database. that is
> a
>> good
>> start.  and you were wise to post your question to this list. lots of
>> good,
>> free advice i'm seeing...
>> but that also leaves us with a host of questions:
>> 
>> 1. will this be a public site? or just an intranet? (i.e. who will
> have
>> access?)
>> 2. who will be responsible for the maintenance of the site and
> database?
>> one
>> person? several?
>> 3. how much data-crunching flexibility will you need above and beyond
>> the
>> basic database functions (like add/delete/modify records)?  a lot?
> none
>> at
>> all?
>> 4. are you worried at all about info security? (i.e. is this
>> highly-sensitive data?)
>> 
>> and these are just a few of the many questions someone might throw at
>> you,
>> so be prepared.
>> 
>> from there, i would attest that there is little difference these days
>> (my
>> opinion, people) as to what platform you have sitting in front of
you.
>> personal preference determines more in this arena than anything else,
> it
>> seems to me. there is enough interactivity between protocols these
> days
>> (unless you are doing some mega-weird stuff) that you can easily talk
>> between disparate machine types.
>> 
>> you can manage your data on a remote unix server (are you sure it
> isn't
>> linux? ;) as aptly with a mac laptop as you could with a huge 1.8Ghz
> PC
>> whiz-bang machine. most likely, you will just be connecting over a
>> protocol
>> such as FTP, telnet (please, for the love of job, don't use telnet),
> or
>> *SSH* (please, yada yada, please teach everyone in the world to
>> use/love/adore ssh). [ssh stands for "secure shell" and provides a
>> fairly
>> decent layer of protection for data transmissions.]
>> 
>> these protocols are available for every major platform type and
>> interaction
>> amongst them should be seamless. have i blathered enough? i think
not.
>> 
>> on to your /actual/ question:
>> 
>> what are we defining as "middleware" here? i'm assuming that means
> some
>> way
>> of rendering the database info onto the screen. in this realm, there
> is
>> a
>> lot to choose from.
>> 
>> <big open source plug>
>> if having a COMPLETELY FREE solution that is ABSOLUTELY FIRST RATE
>> sounds
>> interesting to you, then i highly recommend finding someone with
>> unix/linux
>> experience and directing them at the sacred triumvirate --
>> PHP/MYSQL/APACHE.
>> yes, indeed -- you may need to lay out some expensive training for
> this
>> person, or remain patient as they laze about the office reading a
> thick
>> O'Reilly book for a while, but the end result will be the equivalent
> of
>> Internet Nirvana. just kick back, watch the cows graze, and enjoy mad
>> uptime
>> on your site. (of course, i recommend keeping up with security
patches
>> ;)
>> 
>> apache = the world's most deployed and best developed web SERVER.
>> mySQL = DATABASE that has been around a long time and had most of the
>> kinks
>> worked out
>> PHP = gods gift to dumbasses like me - allows you to create some
> kickin'
>> websites with little knowledge of (advanced) programming. i guess
this
>> would
>> be the MIDDLEWARE.
> 
>> 
>> for much more advanced database features, please look towards
>> PostGRESQL.
>> those folks are "nuts about databases."
>> </big open source plug>
>> 
>> okay, enough of my incohesive ranting...
>> 
>> there are also products from other vendors. another excellent
> middleware
>> solution is Cold Fusion. i don't know much about this product, but i
> do
>> know
>> that it can enable folks who don't "know everything already" about
web
>> site
>> building to put up some rather impressive stuff in a short timeframe.
>> not
>> such a big learning curve, but by the time you've passed this
learning
>> curve, you'll (perhaps) be longing for the advanced features of
> another
>> product.
>> 
>> in terms of microsoft products, (you'll note i am listing them dead
>> last)
>> you should have a lot to choose from. hear me now and believe me
later
>> and
>> maybe talk about it some other time, Access IS NOT a database. yes, i
>> know
>> what the M$ website says, and yes, i know what their product
> literature
>> says. i'm not an idiot. but i do know to listen to folks who know a
> lot
>> more
>> than i do and for over 5 years, the across-the-board response on
> Access
>> is
>> that it is a veritable P.O.S.
>> 
>> Access is more like an "advanced address book" for your windows PC. i
>> would
>> rather swallow a windows cd-rom than administer an Access "database."
> if
>> you
>> want a /real/ database product and you want it to have the M$ logo on
>> it,
>> then i recommend SQL. there is still the stigma of running a
microsoft
>> product, but this is one of the better products that they
manufacture.
>> many
>> serious sites are run off of a SQL/IIS platform.
>> 
>> ahhhh... IIS -- and this brings us to the *real* hinge of this
>> discussion.
>> IIS (or Internet Information Server) is the bane of all web existence
> --
>> yeah, even worse than netscape. it has so many security issues that i
>> couldn't even begin to explain. the problem with ASP and running any
> of
>> the
>> M$ products is that doing so makes you completely reliant on IIS --
>> "IIS,
>> you *are* the weakest link."
>> 
>> i've seen IIS lockups more times than i'd like to remember. i've seen
>> more
>> IIS security exploits than i thought were possible with one singular
>> product. Code Red and all of its crap were the direct fault of IIS
>> servers
>> around the world. legend has spoken that even being in the same room
> as
>> an
>> IIS server when it is booting will bring a dark curse upon your
>> domicile.
>> 
>> okay, let me wrap it up -- 'tis almost quitting time...
>> 
>> first, you need a detailed rundown of the whos / whats / whys of your
>> database needs. (looks like Mike Thomas' email nailed that one good).
>> 
>> next, you need to decide where to spend your $$$ -- training and
>> (hopefully)
>> holding onto a decent employee -or- buying a lot of software
licenses.
>> 
>> then, you can determine which solution works best for your budget,
>> needs,
>> capabilities, etc.
>> 
>> lastly, you can worry about what OS your provider uses and what your
>> desktop
>> is.  ;)
>> 
>> hope this was helpful and not too sanctimonious.
>> dave m.
>> p.s. sounds like you've got a new employee on the way, but if you are
> in
>> need of any more, please email this list or me directly. i certainly
>> know a
>> lot of top-notch folks who could use the work.
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Marybeth Lackey" <mlackey AT raleighcvb.org>
>> To: "InterNetWorkers" <internetworkers AT franklin.oit.unc.edu>
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 3:20 PM
>> Subject: [internetworkers] Database inquiry
>> 
>> 
>>> My office would like to have a database-driven site. We're in the
>>> preliminary planning stages and need a few questions answered, if
>> anyone
>> has
>>> the expertise and the time to explain it to me so I can explain it
> to
>>> them!!!
>>> 
>>> 1. What exactly do we need? We have a database set up right now that
>> is
>> part
>>> of a proprietary program for Convention and Visitors Bureaus, but
>> could be
>>> mapped into Access.  The Internet person (me right now; someone new
> in
>> a
>>> month and a half) has a Mac. Our site is hosted by a hosting company
>> and I
>>> BELIEVE their servers are Unix, although that would have to be
>> confirmed.
>>> 
>>> I know we need some sort of middleware, but is it better to stick
> with
>> MS
>>> and use the Access database along with some ASP, or should we start
>> from
>>> ground zero?  Should my job as the sole Internet person have a Mac
> or
>> a
>> PC,
>>> or will that matter?  I'm pretty sure the middleware goes on the
>> server,
>> so
>>> would a hosting company provide that, or would we have to move our
>> server
>>> in-house?  And if they have Unix servers, does that eliminate using
>> the
>>> whole Access/ASP option if they continue to host our site?
>>> 
>>> I think that should get us started on our discussion. Thanks in
>> advance
>> for
>>> any help you can offer.
>>> ---
>>> Mary Beth Lackey
>>> Internet Manager
>>> Greater Raleigh Convention and Visitors Bureau
>>> http://www.raleighcvb.org
> 
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