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[EarthNSky <erthnsky AT bellsouth.net>]

The whole implication of the 5 plane losses is that McCain is a screwup-
a hot shot, reckless pilot with no sense of responsibility.  It is an
attempt to make him sound as stupid as W.

My FIL is a Navy pilot of that era.  DH is airplane aficianado.  My
knowledge of such matters is from them.

The Forrestal incident was not his fault.  He just happened to be
sitting in the plane at the time of the incident and was lucky to escape
death.  I swear the guy has 9 lives.

His incident in Spain, taking out the power lines, did not result in the
loss of a plane.  He landed safely, but it was an embarrassing incident
because he was the son of an admiral.  I haven't read McCain's book, but
he fully admits that he was playing around going under power lines when
it happened.  His behavior was out of bounds, but he did not lose a plane.

There was an incident where he was flying a trainer home from the Army
Navy game.  There was a flameout and after a few minutes of trying to
restart, he ejected and the plane crashed. So that counts as a plane
loss, but according to my personal sources(FIL and DH<g>) flame outs
were common in those old training jets as simple maneuvers could cause
the fuel mixture ratio to change resulting in a flameout. Back then, the
trainers were made in the early 50's-for that matter McCain's A-4 was
also of that era.  Of course, flameouts are also caused by mechanical
problems as well as lack of fuel. Whatever the reason was for the
flameout, the Navy did not find pilot error so McCain would not be held
responsible in any way.  I don't know why the football game would be
mentioned in this incident unless McCain had improperly obtained the
plane or was AWOL by attending the game.  If that is the case, then
again, his behavior was out of bounds.

One plane he lost and would be held responsible for-the one in Corpus
Christie Bay, was almost certainly his fault.  He was a young pilot
then, so you might could understand it, especially since they say he
wasn't a good pilot back then...but this definitely counts as a loss.

We've all seen the movie Top Gun.  While that is Hollywood, there is
some truth to the personalities we see in the movie. The Navy chooses
these guys intentionally...the screw ups, the hot shots, the fly by the
seat of their pants risk takers...it is done because that is the edge
that is needed to be a sky warrior.  Boyington's Black Sheep of WWII is
a prime example.  The Tuskegee airmen had nothing to loose-they were
risk takers as well.
The SAM incident...
This happened on McCain's 23rd mission over country.  That is 23
takeoffs and landings on a carrier...not easy. Was he hot shotting when
he got hit?  Maybe. He went in with no fear, for sure,
practically dive bombing the target straight on.  He did not do the
Funky Chicken.  He probably did feel a bit invincible after the previous
days kills.  I saw one smear email talking about how he only had those
two kills, like he was inept at shooting planes down.  Well, first,the
planes he took out were on the ground.  Why is that important?  Because
the A-4E was an attack jet, light bomber, not a fighter jet.  Attack
jets operate at the front, providing ground support for the troops by
dropping bombs and napalm. They generally flew low to be able to see 
what they were about to kill. Maximum speed was about 670 mph.  SAMs can 
fly at over 2000 mph.  If you don't shuck and jive, you are probably 
dead.  So perhaps his diving in low, both times in Hanoi and in Spain, 
really wasn't so reckless after all.  You decide.  Reckless looking 
aerobatics could be practice for dodging missiles and flak.

Was he reckless in his youth?  Yup.  He certainly doesn't deny it.
While reading up on this, I saw some passages from his book.  He
definitely seems to regret a lot of his actions from back then, and he
takes responsibility for a lot of stuff.
On that note, I also say that I saw him on TV admit that he cheated on
his first wife and that he even took full responsibility for the failure 
of that marriage.
If you look at his flying history and equate it to driving over a 10
year period, it just doesn't seem so bad.  I think you could make the 
case that through pilot error, he lost only one plane.


Here is what I see...
I see a good looking, hot shot, immature pilot who spends the first 30
years of his life partying and living the good life, taking advantage of
his family's  accomplishments and name.  He never could quite live up to
the hype of his family.  When he was shot down, he had 5 years to think
about his life.  When he came home, he was crippled in more ways than
one, middle aged now, insecure, he has multiple affairs and ruins his
family and marriage.  He starts over with Cindy, her money, and a career
in politics, but the old John McCain, the self centered hot shot,  is
still there, subdued by age and illness, but there.  I personally think
it was the Keating Five scandal that changed him. I think it was the
defining event in his life.  He realized that his 9 lives were used up,
that he had once again narrowly escaped death(political this time) and
it was time to grow up(at 50+ years old) and redeem himself.  I believe
that is why he has worked for campaign reform and against corruption.
IMO, he has truly tried to be, the heroic team player of his POW persona
by crossing party lines.  He knew what he had done back then, and he
knew what he needed to do to be the man he should have  become years
before.  It may be too little too late, or you may not believe it at
all.  The man certainly has flaws, but I believe the John McCain of
today is a decent guy.  He should have been nominated in 2000 instead of
Bush, but he wasn't Republican enough.  I think he would have been a
good president 8 years ago, certainly better than Bush, but I think he
is too old now.  McCain certainly would not have sat in a room of
schoolkids while the WTC burned.  I think his country first motto is his
personal motto of redemption, not just his campaign motto. It is a
personal reminder to him that he spent the first part of his life
putting himself first, and now, it should be country first.  Will he
manage to do that all the time?  Of course not.  He is a politician, and
politicians are slippery and waffley.  I do think he is trying, however.

I don't expect anyone to agree with me,,,,I am just stating what I see
when I look at the old guy.  I feel a bit of sympathy for him, for his
pain, his sacrifice, his troubled life, and for his piss poor timing on
everything.

Bev


Gene GeRue wrote:
> On Oct 8, 2008, at 8:35 PM, EarthNSky wrote:
>
> > http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/did_mccain_crash_five_planes_did_he.html
> >
> > The answer is not five.
>
> The Rolling Stone article I posted says three.

--
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from
the government and I'm here to help.'"  Ronald Reagan