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  • From: Branden C <aktisskeelo AT hotmail.com>
  • To: <homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [Homestead] Insurance--a homesteader's viewpoint
  • Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 22:14:21 -0400


Hello, Recent Lurker here.

It's not so much that physicians "give" insurance companies discounts.
The Insurance Companies set fee schedules, ie. what they will pay for a given
service, for your particular geographic area. The physician accepts that
amount or he/she will not accept that insurance.

But it gets more complicated. Medicaid/Medicare does the same. However they
determine among other things what % they will pay for a given service. That
is why the cash fee for service is greater.

One other thing. Not all Medicaid/Medicare Fraud is "fraud". If someone
sees a physician, and he comps that patient... say pay what you can... or
dont worry about paying for this visit. And Medicaid does a review of that
physician's office payments... they can literally say fraud has been done to
the goverment because they are paying a certain % of a cash payment, but here
the physician is providing services for free...

Branden> From: homestead-request AT lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: Homestead
Digest, Vol 45, Issue 15> To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org> Date: Sun, 6 Apr
2008 20:47:49 -0400> > Send Homestead mailing list submissions to>
homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide
Web, visit> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/homestead> or, via
email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to>
homestead-request AT lists.ibiblio.org> > You can reach the person managing the
list at> homestead-owner AT lists.ibiblio.org> > When replying, please edit your
Subject line so it is more specific> than "Re: Contents of Homestead
digest..."> > > Today's Topics:> > 1. Re: Insurance--a homesteader's
viewpoint (clhw)> 2. Re: Insurance--a homesteader's viewpoint (Marie
McHarry)> 3. Re: Insurance--a homesteader's viewpoint (Lynda)> 4. Re:
Insurance--a homesteader's viewpoint (Clansgian AT wmconnect.com)> 5. Re:
Insurance--a homesteader's viewpoint (clhw)> 6. Re: Insurance--a
homesteader's viewpoint (clhw)> 7. Re: Insurance--a homesteader's viewpoint
(Gene GeRue)> 8. Re: Insurance--a homesteader's viewpoint (Gene GeRue)> 9.
Re: Insurance--a homesteader's viewpoint (SJC)> 10. Re: Insurance--a
homesteader's viewpoint (Clansgian AT wmconnect.com)> > >
----------------------------------------------------------------------> >
Message: 1> Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 14:16:32 -0400> From: clhw AT infoave.net
(clhw)> Subject: Re: [Homestead] Insurance--a homesteader's viewpoint> To:
homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org> Message-ID:
<v02130501c41ea37f9e3b@[64.53.36.12]>> Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"> > Insurance is legalized gambling in which the insurance
policy purchaser> bets the insurance company that he, the purchaser will
lose. You only win> on health insurance if you get sick and need financial
help. You only win> on car insurance if you have a wreck or damage done to
your vehicle. You> only win on life insurance if you die young.> > The
insurance company bets against the purchaser based on its tables of>
probability. What is the probability that a 30-year-old will keel over dead>
of unknown causes? Or that he/she will have a wreck which "totals" their>
car? Especially since, if the purchaser has a poor driving record, the> rates
are higher? The insurance company takes into account whether or not> the
purchaser has taken driver's training, has a B or higher average, is>
enrolled full-time in high school, etc.> > Insurance is always a losing deal
for the purchaser unless they fall prey> to whatever they are insuring
against at an early age and with devastating> results. Insurance has caused a
large portion of the increase of medical> charges. Part of the squabbling
over HomeOwners' Association regulations is> caused by insurance.> > Many
doctors and hospitals give 30 - 50% reduction in charges to people who> carry
no insurance. Why?> > Just my opinion.> > >What are your thoughts on the
issue of insurance?> >>
>*http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/06/magazine/06wwln-safire-t.html?ref=magazine>
> > > > ------------------------------> > Message: 2> Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008
13:22:16 -0500> From: "Marie McHarry" <mmcharry AT gmail.com>> Subject: Re:
[Homestead] Insurance--a homesteader's viewpoint> To:
homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org> Message-ID:>
<18c9df6e0804061122x13c29266wc493e22614a2d2ba AT mail.gmail.com>> Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1> > > Many doctors and hospitals give 30 - 50%
reduction in charges to people who> > carry no insurance. Why?> >> I don't
know of a place where that is true. People who don't have> insurance are
billed at a higher rate -- often substantially higher --> than people who are
covered by insurance companies that have worked> out payment schedules with
providers.> > Marie> > > ------------------------------> > Message: 3> Date:
Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:25:28 -0800> From: "Lynda" <lurine AT softcom.net>> Subject:
Re: [Homestead] Insurance--a homesteader's viewpoint> To:
<homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org>> Message-ID:
<003601c89824$8cec9a60$fd7b3542@Moon>> Content-Type: text/plain;
format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";> reply-type=original> > Actually, the
reverse is true. Non-insurance patients are charged the > *standard* rates.
Insurance companies negotiate a rate which is lower than > the standard.> >
Hospitals *rarely* discount for cash and it has to be cash up front. >
*Some,* again *rare* doctors will discount for cash up front.> > *Sometimes,*
again, not the rule but rather the exception, you can negotiate > the
insurance rate on a bill with a hospital but usually only if you pay > within
a very stort period of time.> > Lynda> ----- Original Message ----- > From:
"clhw" <clhw AT infoave.net>> > > >snip<> > Many doctors and hospitals give 30 -
50% reduction in charges to people > > who> > carry no insurance. Why?> >> >
Just my opinion.> >> >>What are your thoughts on the issue of insurance?> >>>
>>*http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/06/magazine/06wwln-safire-t.html?ref=magazine>
>> >> > _______________________________________________> > Homestead list
and subscription:> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/homestead> >
Change your homestead list member options:> >
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/options/homestead/lurine%40softcom.net> >
View the archives at:> > https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/homestead> >> >
> > > > ------------------------------> > Message: 4> Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008
16:22:18 EDT> From: Clansgian AT wmconnect.com> Subject: Re: [Homestead]
Insurance--a homesteader's viewpoint> To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <c63.2c6f8cc8.352a8afa AT wmconnect.com>> Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="US-ASCII"> > We carry liablity on our vehicles. The insurance
company would pay us > nothing for the loss of our bottom-feeder vehicles
anyway. But it takes the most > innocent tap on someone's car for them to
claim all and sundry dire injuries. > So my conclustion has been that if gas
and tags and such are the bare > essentials for driving, so is insurance. If
ever the insurance becomes so odious that > I don't want it, I will stop
driving.> > With the world oil situation, that could soon be a moot point
anyway.> > Likewise house insurance, which also covers the farm, is pretty
cheap here. > What this and the auto insurance means is that if I am bothered
by someone's > claims, the insurance company can have the headaches.> > All
my business is conducted through an LLC so any liability from that > quarter
would garner the claimant and their sheisters nothing, as the well know and >
so it is no temptation.> > Also Tennessee is one of the states in which all
property is held by married > people as "tenancy by entirety". This means
each spouse fully and separately > owns all communal property. If someone
obtains judgement against me, Denise > still owns the all our property in its
entirety and so it cannot be attached. > And vice versa. It behooves one to
know if this is the case in your state. > Here is is automatic and in some
states you can opt for it.> > As far as health insurance goes, the poeple who
have expressed that cash > payers are charged MORE are entirely correct.
That's to make a case that the > insurance companies are getting a bogus deep
discount. When dental insurance was > uncommon, a filling cost $16. Just as
soon as insurance covered it, the > average around here shot up to $80.> >
The best insurance is live as well as you can, and that includes taking a >
long hard look at the 'malady du jour' that everyone claims at any given
time. > Spend the attention funds on good food, good work, and a good
attitude. The > odds that insurance backed medicine is going to correct
something are far worse > than the odds that you could prevent it to begin
with.> > At our ages health insurance would cost four times it otherwise
takes us to > live. Why mirthlessly enslave oneself to such a system? Better,
says I, to > live well while one can than to live half-assed because of a
fear of something > going wrong.> > James </HTML>> > >
------------------------------> > Message: 5> Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 16:56:54
-0400> From: clhw AT infoave.net (clhw)> Subject: Re: [Homestead] Insurance--a
homesteader's viewpoint> To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org> Message-ID:
<v02130504c41ee10917c1@[64.53.36.12]>> Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"> > Well I can name you 2 hospitals and 3 doctor's offices
where it is true> right now. I did not know this was the case until just
recently.> > >> Many doctors and hospitals give 30 - 50% reduction in charges
to people who> >> carry no insurance. Why?> >>> >I don't know of a place
where that is true. People who don't have> >insurance are billed at a higher
rate -- often substantially higher --> >than people who are covered by
insurance companies that have worked> >out payment schedules with providers.>
>> >Marie> > > > > ------------------------------> > Message: 6> Date: Sun, 6
Apr 2008 16:56:56 -0400> From: clhw AT infoave.net (clhw)> Subject: Re:
[Homestead] Insurance--a homesteader's viewpoint> To:
homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org> Message-ID:
<v02130505c41ee147263f@[64.53.36.12]>> Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"> > The local hospital to my county has instituted a 30%
discount for anyone> who pays the entire bill of a procedure, like a lab
blood work, before it> is done. It also discounts the amount which must be
paid if it is paid> within 30 days.> > All the doctors who are affiliated
under the hospital system (not all those> who can admit to the hospital) also
give 20 or 30% discount for bills paid> immediately upon the visit.> > The
hospital in the next county over, which is a larger regional hospital,> gives
a 7% discount for all bills paid immediately. Larger percentages are> given
for people with no insurance, upon negotiation.> > One doctor's office,
registered with the regional hospital, but not> sporting their name on its
bills discounts as much as 50% on negotiation.> > It is rare for a hospital
(or doctor) to see money from an insurance> company in less than 90 days and
they have to pay someone to do the filing> papers to get it then. So, it's
like a gas station which has a lower price> for cash payment. Also, they know
that people who are strapped to pay a> bill may just give up if not allowed
some more reasonable amount to pay.> > >Actually, the reverse is true.
Non-insurance patients are charged the> >*standard* rates. Insurance
companies negotiate a rate which is lower than> >the standard.> >> >Hospitals
*rarely* discount for cash and it has to be cash up front.> >*Some,* again
*rare* doctors will discount for cash up front.> >> >*Sometimes,* again, not
the rule but rather the exception, you can negotiate> >the insurance rate on
a bill with a hospital but usually only if you pay> >within a very stort
period of time.> >> >Lynda> > > > > ------------------------------> >
Message: 7> Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 16:35:50 -0500> From: Gene GeRue
<genegerue AT ruralize.com>> Subject: Re: [Homestead] Insurance--a homesteader's
viewpoint> To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org> Message-ID:
<4AC5EDFF-E278-4E89-AA58-646EF05489B5 AT ruralize.com>> Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes> > > On Apr 6, 2008,
at 3:56 PM, clhw wrote:> > > The local hospital to my county has instituted a
30% discount for > > anyone> > who pays the entire bill of a procedure, like
. . . .> > This caused something to come to mind. When I last got new lenses
for > my glasses a few months ago the optometrist at Lenscrafters said I had
> a slight infection in one eye. He started to fill out a prescription > for
medicine to cure it. I don't recall what triggered it, but I > mentioned that
I carry no health insurance. He immediately tore up the > prescription. He
said keep calling my receptionist and ask if the > medicine samples have been
dropped off by the pharma company > salesperson. I did that and within the
week I had a free sample.> > > ------------------------------> > Message: 8>
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 16:38:37 -0500> From: Gene GeRue
<genegerue AT ruralize.com>> Subject: Re: [Homestead] Insurance--a homesteader's
viewpoint> To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org> Message-ID:
<B799FCBA-D28B-4D67-9808-347CBBEF9780 AT ruralize.com>> Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes> > > On Apr 6, 2008,
at 3:22 PM, Clansgian AT wmconnect.com wrote:> > > At our ages health insurance
would cost four times it otherwise > > takes us to> > live. Why mirthlessly
enslave oneself to such a system? Better, > > says I, to> > live well while
one can than to live half-assed because of a fear of > > something> > going
wrong.> > And there it is, my philosophy well expressed. As I have noted, I
do > not pay for disease insurance; I use the money I might otherwise give >
to an insurance company to obtain the best quality food I can find. I > eat
very well. Good beer, too.> > > > ------------------------------> > Message:
9> Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 17:50:41 -0400> From: SJC <indexer AT localnet.com>>
Subject: Re: [Homestead] Insurance--a homesteader's viewpoint> To:
homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org> Message-ID: <47F945B1.8020909 AT localnet.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed> > Certainly here
(Maine)the uninsured pay more. Son injured his hand a > while back and when I
questioned parts of the surgery bill for repair of > injury, I was told
outright in many cases that "if you had insurance, it > would only have been"
X$.> > Since many insurance laws are state-controlled, I'd guess this is one
of > the things that falls under, but here it's a dismal picture. Not that >
it drove me to get insurance....it didn't> > I've had more than my share of
experience with insurers, and as a group, > they are not folks for whom I
Cherish a Great Admiration. Disgusting > creatures.> > Susan Jane, in Maine>
> Marie McHarry wrote:> >> Many doctors and hospitals give 30 - 50% reduction
in charges to people who> >> carry no insurance. Why?> >>> >> > > I don't
know of a place where that is true. People who don't have> > insurance are
billed at a higher rate -- often substantially higher --> > than people who
are covered by insurance companies that have worked> > out payment schedules
with providers.> >> > Marie> >> >> >> > > > > >
------------------------------> > Message: 10> Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 20:47:57
EDT> From: Clansgian AT wmconnect.com> Subject: Re: [Homestead] Insurance--a
homesteader's viewpoint> To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org> Message-ID:
<bbe.266a34dc.352ac93d AT wmconnect.com>> Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="US-ASCII"> > > > > I use the money I might otherwise give > > to an
insurance company to obtain the best quality food I can find. I > > eat very
well. Good beer, too.> > > > It would amaze those who have not tried it just
how much better (healthier) > food one can afford for the price of an
insurance premium. > > I base this following partially on a conversation with
a physicial (general). > My suspicion is that most doctors know very well
that exercise, weight loss, > and above all (or contributing to it all) a
very healthy diet would correct > 97% of what they treat with chemicals. But
they know just as well that people > aren't going to do it. It's a choice of
unpleasantly lecturing about > destructive lifestyle to absolutely no end, or
give them the pills and be done with > it.> > A short while back I took all
the children for dental checkups (with no > dental work needed!). The dentist
knows very well it costs us deep in the purse to > just have proper exams for
them all and so he adjusts his bill accordingly. > It is still monstrously
expensive. I accompanied the youngest through the > routine (he had the
prophylactic sealants for his molars, great invention, that) > and another
boy about his age was in the next chair with something like eleven >
cavities.> > The dentist lectured the mother on giving the boy soda and too
much fruit > juice. Seems children walk around with those pouches and boxes
and swill their > mouths the fruit juice with hours on end. The mother said
she'd try to watch > it.> > The dentist squared off toward her and said,
"Try?? If you don't buy it, he > can't drink it!!"> > But it must be no end
of frustration. Modren medicine is based, so says I, > on us having thrown in
the towel on healthy living and just dealing with and > managing what's left.
</HTML>> > > ------------------------------> >
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https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/homestead> > > End of Homestead Digest,
Vol 45, Issue 15> *****************************************
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