Kata Markon

[Mike Parsons <Mike_Parsons AT baylor.edu>]

         Reply to:   RE: [gmark] Re: Temptations
Thanks for the additional references to peirasmos; that is helpful. i must 
admit to being puzzled though by your last comment
you wrote:  while PEIRAW does mean >"attempt" but only when it is in an 
infinitive form or used with a verbal object >(ala PEIRAZW on occasion in  
Acts = what Seeseman called "the secular use" of >the term), it most often 
means "to prove/probe/try a person's faithfulness or >character or integrity" 
and, so far as my (admittedly) limited examination of the >instances of 
PEIRAW in context -- and your citations suggest, but NEVER "to entice" >or 
"to be enticed/seduced" =to tempt/be tempted.

if this is the case (ie. peiraw does not mean "to entice or seduce"), i can't 
square this with your earlier comment

> And then there is the larger question of whether what you identify in the
novel
> as a model of what the terms PEIRASMOS and cognates signified in either
Greek
> Biblical or non biblical Hellenistic literature really is a such a model,
> especially if it is more concerned with the idea  of  "enticement" or
> "seduction", which I have argued is something quite different from what
stories
> designated as  PEIRASMOI entail.

in this post you distinguish between the peirasmoi stories and those uses of 
cognates that are concerned with "enticement". in the first instance cited, 
you dismiss the references in the ephesian tale because they do not 
participate in the semantic range of "to entice, to seduce=to tempt, be 
tempted"; in the other, you dismiss the novels because they are more 
concerned with 'enticement'. i am confused. i THOUGHT you were distinguishing 
between stories (e.g. novels) that use "tempt" language to mean sexual 
enticement and peirasmos that are "tests" of character.  if so, then the 
passages from the ephesian tale (and perhaps other novels) become important.
  (and of course lurking in the back of mind is the use of peiraomai in 
Hebrews 4:15).  please enlighten me.
mikeal

Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
>Mike Parsons wrote:
>
>>          Reply to:   RE: [gmark] Re: Temptations
>> sorry to be getting into this thread late, but i wanted to make partial 
>> >response to the questions about the occurrence of peirasmos and its 
>> cognates in >the greek novels
>>
>> J. Gibson wrote
>>
>> >> > Also, I'm curious about your assertion that there is a tradition
>> >regarding
>> >> > "testing" and/or a use of the "testing motif" in the Greek Novel. Can
>> >you
>> >> > tell
>> >> > me when and where this appears? And can you tell me whether or not, 
>> >> > when
>> >it
>> >> > appears, what the technical language of "testing" is? That is to say, 
>> >> > is
>> >it
>> >> > the
>> >> > noun PEIRASMOS and its verbal cognates PEIRAZW, EKPEIRAZW, etc.,  or
>> >some
>> >> > other
>> >> > terminology?
>> >******************
>>  So far as I know (after
>> >searching
>> >> all forms of PEIRASMOS and cognates in the TLG -- which in terms of the
>> >number
>> >> of instances of the terminology is far more extensive than those noted 
>> >> in
>> >LSJ),
>> >> the terminology does not appear in any of the Hellenistic Greek Novels
>> >such as
>> >> Chariton, etc.
>> >**********************
>>
>> 1) first, i'd like to know how many occurrences of peirasmos you found in 
>> >the TLG.  the author of the article in TDNT (if i recall correctly) says 
>> there >are only 3 occurrences in greek literature.  have you found more?
>
>Yes, before ce 200 , at least 2 more times: In addition to those that 
>>Seeseman mentions (Pedanius Dioscorides, Mat. Med. Praef. 5.12; Cyranides 
>Sec. 40.24, the >Syntipas p. 124 of the edition of Jernstedt and Nikition), 
>it appears in  >Ptolemaeus of Ascalon, De differentia vocabulorum, Sigma 
>146;  Aelius Herodianus, >Partitiones 110.5, .  If one assumes relatively 
>early dates for the commentaries >instances in the Anonymi in Aristotelis 
>Artem Rhetoricum, the Anonymi in >Aristotelis Ethica: In Ethica Nichomachea 
>Commentaria, and the Scholia on Eupripdes--then >it is instanced 5 more 
>times: at Anon.Art.Rhet.Comm. 98.29, 102.29, 103.9; >Anon.Eth.Nich.Comm. 
>454.10; Schol.Eurip., sch Hecuba 1226.
>
>>
>> 2) we just finished reading xenophon's the ephesian tale.  as you may 
>> >know, the greek text is in something of a mess, but the teubner edition 
>> does list a >number of occurrences of peiraomai in its index. i have not 
>> had a chance to check >them all, but a couple might be of interest in 
>> terms of a "testing" motif.  the >first occurrence of the word, an 
>> articular infinitive (tou peirathanai) is when >some of the servants 
>> (themselves about to die on a burning ship) rejoice that >their masters, 
>> Anthia and Habrocomes, "will be lucky enought to die without suffering 
>> >the pirates' chains!"  Here the translator graham anderson has rendered 
>> (perhaps >reasonably enough) tou peirathanai as "suffering."  later when 
>> habracomes and >anthia learn that they are both the objects of lustful 
>> pirates, Anthia bemoans, >taxeus ths douleias peirometha, which anderson 
>> translates, "how soon we are >experiencing slavery!"  of course, peiraomai 
>> in the middle sense may simply mean >"experience" (as BAGD points out), 
>> but in
>> light of this discussion, it might be fruitful to explore the other 
>> >occurrences of this term in Xenophon, since one could reasonably 
>> translate these two >occurrences as part of a testing, i.e., the oath of 
>> fidelity habrocomes and anthia >have made to each other is tested by 
>> chains, by lustful pirates, an angry woman >(2.3.5), etc.  this is far 
>> more than sexual temptation, in fact, i haven't found >that use in 
>> xenophon so far (several instances do seem to mean simply "try," 
>> >"attempt"). i'm surprised none of these came up in your TLG search. are 
>> we sure the >Ephesian Tale is in the databank?  (again, as you know, many 
>> texts are yet to be >added, including many from the jewish 
>> pseudepigrapha--i find denis concordance >still the best way to access 
>> these texts).
>> for what it's worth,
>> mikeal
>
>The reason for this is that all of the instances you cite above are forms 
>>of the verb PEIRAW not PEIRAZW. I do have this data in hand, but have not 
>looked >at it in any depth. Interestingly -- at least to my eyes -- while 
>PEIRAW does mean >"attempt" but only when it is in an infinitive form or 
>used with a verbal object >(ala PEIRAZW on occasion in  Acts = what Seeseman 
>called "the secular use" of >the term), it most often means "to 
>prove/probe/try a person's faithfulness or >character or integrity" and, so 
>far as my (admittedly) limited examination of the >instances of PEIRAW in 
>context -- and your citations suggest, but NEVER "to entice" >or "to be 
>enticed/seduced" =to tempt/be tempted.
>
>Yours,
>
>Jeffrey
>
>--
>Jeffrey B. Gibson
>7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A
>Chicago, Illinois 60626
>e-mail jgibson000 AT ameritech.net
>
>
>
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>Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 15:16:01 -0500
>From: "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000 AT mpdr0.chicago.il.ameritech.net>
>Subject: [gmark] Re: Temptations
>To: Kata Markon <gmark AT franklin.oit.unc.edu>
>Reply-to: Kata Markon <gmark AT franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Mikeal C. Parsons
Department of Religion
Baylor University
Waco, TX 76798
Voice:  254-710-4591
FAX:  254-710-3740