Cc-europe mailing list

["Prodromos Tsiavos" <p.tsiavos AT lse.ac.uk>]

Dear All,

First of all may thanks to Paul and Alek for drafting the letter and to Juan 
Carlos for the initial version.

Most importantly I believe the discussion on the issues that Henrik and 
Florian raised is one of the key reasons why we have started this group...

My personal opinion is that Henrik and Florian's comments reflect an overall 
sentiment among all CC leads.

The "look and feel" of iCommons does not really reflect the culture or 
attitude of most of national project leads (at least that is my impression). 
Most of us do not feel like CC sales people but rather are interested in 
exploring (often critically) the legal or other aspects of CC and in 
supporting alternative to the mainstream instruments for fostering 
creativity.

We do not expect any payment for our involvement, but to have CC "taxed" by 
iCommons is rather annoying...

In any case, we need to make a distinction between two issues:
(a) the 1K$ issue: I agree with Florian that we need to discuss the issue, 
but is there any point raising it in the letter if the decision is 
irreversible? it could dilute the message of the letter.
(b) the overall issue of the link between iCommons and CC is something that 
is of great importance for all of us as it affects our motivation to 
participate in the CC project. It should be a key item in the Leuven 
meeting. My feeling is that iCommons' involvement in the workings of 
national CC project is from minimal to non-existent. I do not see the 
iCommons operating as the public branch of CC in the national level. There 
is no such organizational structure or other link. As a matter of fact, I 
fail to see any direct links between the two projects other than the mailing 
lists and the iSummit which again is a much more generic event.

Also following Brian's message: Catharina, is there any possibility that CC 
funds the participation of non-COMMUNIA CC Europe projects at least to the 
CC Europe meetings? This is not as expensive as a trip to Japan and in these 
meetings we really have the opportunity to talk a lot about issues that 
otherwise would be left untouched.

In sum, I believe the letter should be sent as it is right now and possibly 
work on something like a "charter" concerning (a) what we expect from CC in 
relation to national CC projects and (b) how we perceive our relationship we 
with iCommons. This mailing list and the next CC Europe are good starting 
points for such work.

Many thanks for your time
pRo
p.s.: I have the same questions as Alek regarding the participation 
fee...anyone has an answer?




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brian Restall (PiM)" <brian.restall AT pim.com.mt>
To: "'Florian Philapitsch'" <florian.philapitsch AT wu-wien.ac.at>; "'Paul 
Keller'" <pk AT kl.nl>
Cc: <cc-europe AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Cc-europe] draft letter to the CC Board oncommunication and 
governance


Thks for those comments Florian. They reflect a lot of our thoughts here in
Malta and while we gladly invested a lot of time and money to launch CC
locally, we are now wondering whether it is even worth pushing ahead to port
version 3. So far we have no plans to do so.

We have never once attended a summit or met any other project leads due to
the limited cash flow at our organisation, and in most cases we feel
completely isolated from the process. While we have no expectations for
financial remuneration for our efforts here, we did however expect some
basic assistance to attend summits or other important meetings and feel part
of global team. Efforts to assist national leads remain by and large very
limited unfortunately in our opinion.

Regards,


Brian Restall
_________________________________________________
Projects in Motion Ltd.           Executive Director
One Triq il-Plejju  Iklin  IKL 1830  malta
tel/fax +356 21 420 852 mob +356 9984 7540
http://www.pim.com.mt                Building on Ideas!

-----Original Message-----
From: cc-europe-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:cc-europe-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Florian
Philapitsch
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 11:21 AM
To: Paul Keller
Cc: cc-europe AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [Cc-europe] draft letter to the CC Board on communication and
governance

Dear Paul, dear All,

you are probably right, this should be adressed on a seperate
occasion, but, as I said, when and where?
Since we are already talking about that issue, I'd like to add some
(personal and frustrated) thoughts to Henriks rant.
I have been active in the CC-business for a very long time now, I got
in in the midst of the creation of the first CC-licenses for Austria.
Since then I have spent quite some time on the CC-issue. Mainly
because as a web-user I liked the idea of the project and as a jurist
I liked the license-part. I wrote several texts on behalf of CC, I
gave some speeches and I am just finishing the 3.0 licenses for
Austria. For most of these things I did not recieve any money. For
most of these things I did not _expect_ any money.

Personally, I am no big fan of iCommons. It feels like a generic
movement, a forced good-will-organisation and the uptight and
disilliusioned jurist in me despises the world-hugging
copyright-hippie direction this "movement" has taken (the idea of a
"greener" iSummit still makes me go *rrrraaaaahhh*). But hey, I do not
have to like iCommons to work on CC which IMO is still a
copyright-project.
Paul, you are right, the decision about the lump sum has been made -
but this does not make it indiscussable. With the chosen solution, the
optics are extremely poor. I regard it almost as a personal insult,
when I invest unpaid time and work into CC, and then CCi (which I do
not wish to blame for anything here) pays iCommons a sum for my
participation and ultimately (and in the worst case scenario) I have
to pay for my trip to Sapporo and the stay there.
This will result in fewer people travelling to Sapporo, therefore
saving CCi some money but it also will result in some people (like me)
severely considering if they want to further want to invest time and
work when they end up paying for their trips themselves.

To sum this up in an over-simplifying way - personally, I do not want
to have to do with iCommons. As a copyright jurist I am interested in
the CC-licenses and the many interesting legal questions they bring
on. Thinking that, ultimately, iCommons is getting money for the work
I do, is making me a sad Panda :)

kind regards from Vienna,
Florian

Zitat von Paul Keller <pk AT kl.nl>:

> On 23 Apr 2008, at 10:03, Florian Philapitsch wrote:
>
> > I totally agree with this letter and will be happy to sign it.
> > The issue with the seperation between iCommons and CC is raised, but
> > not really elaborated upon.
>
> dear Florian,
> thanks for your reponse....
>
> > In my opinion this will be one of the
> > major issues in the future. If I think of the mentioned 1000 USD paid
> > by CCi for the participation of (voluntary working) CCi-members to
> > iCommons, thereby nuking the sponsorship for travels, I feel that
> > clear and clean borders have to be drawn here.
>
> i do not think that we should adress this issue in the letter
> (disclosure: i am on the board of icommons) for the simple reason that
> this decision has been made and we are beyond the point that it can be
> changed. i agree with many of you here that the way the contribution by
> CC to icommons is structured is not the most obvious or elegant one,
> but in the end it does not really matter if icommmons pays a lup sum of
> USD xxxx to icommons or if that sum is expressed as xx * nomber of
> participants send to the summit by CCi. i do agree with you that there
> need to be clear and clean borders and i think that our letter
> underlines this.
>
> best regards, paul
>
> > This HAS to be addressed and discussed, however, I am not sure, if
> > this letter is the right place. On the other hand - what is?
>
> --
> Kennisland | Knowledgeland
> t: +31 20 5756720 | m: +31 6 41374687
> www.kennisland.nl | www.knowledgeland.org



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