Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Steve Miller" <smille10 AT sbcglobal.net>]

Fred,
I think lolam or ad-olam means until the age or forever depending on the 
context. If you want to unambiguously say "forever" in Hebrew, then you say 
something like le-olam v-ad or olam ad olam, which KJV translates as for ever 
and ever. I think olam is less ambiguous than "a very long time" or "an 
unknown time".  In Jonah 2:6, Jonah thought he was dead for sure, and he 
would be there until the resurrection at the end of the age.  This is similar 
to Exo 21:6 where the slave will serve his master lolam. 

Sincerely,
-Steve Miller
Detroit
www.voiceInWilderness.info
Blessed is the man who walks not in 
the world's counsel of sin, 
nor standeth in the sinners' way, 
nor with the scornful stays,
because he delights in the law
of the Lord, and in awe
he meditates both day and night.
His mind is being made right. (Psalm 1:1-2)


> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-hebrew-
> bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of fred burlingame
> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 7:44 PM
> To: Paul Zellmer
> Cc: B-Hebrew
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] one-to-one rendering of olam (was: Song of Songs 
> 1:12)
> 
> I am a believer in the statement of one deceased rabbi samson hirsch, to
> wit:
> 
> "Our sacred literature does not use obscure language, but describes most 
> things in
> words clearly indicating their meaning. Therefore it is necessary at all 
> times to delve
> into the literal meaning of words in order to achieve complete 
> understanding of
> what is actually meant." see, page ix of the link.
> 
> http://books.google.com/books?id=eVAAfn6Itb4C&pg=PR15&lpg=PR15&dq=liter
> al+meaning+samson+hirsch&source=bl&ots=jyJTGvlq6q&sig=wgkkJyBEOzdnAU
> -AuQzsfVHWgu4&hl=en&ei=-
> Sn5TMBzhryVB6nHreEH&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0C
> BkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=literal%20meaning%20samson%20hirsch&f=false
> 
> 
> Applying the rabbi's rule to the phrase at hand: i read it to mean: "until 
> concealed"
> or "until hidden," no more .. and no less ....
> 
> It simply means an unknown period of time.
> 
> The phrase expressly intends disclosure not of the time period. It could be 
> three
> days like jonah in the whale; or 500 years like the first temple, or some 
> other shorter
> or longer period of time.
> 
> Boosting the meaning into "eternity" profoundly changes the entire 
> masoretic text
> in my humble opinion.
> 
> regards,
> 
> fred burlingame
> 
> 
> On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 6:02 PM, Paul Zellmer <pzellmer AT sc.rr.com> wrote:
> 
> >  English has the concept of an endless “forever.”  Hebrew does not.
> >As  Gary reminded us, the actual concept of  עולם is a very long time.
> >But  the normal English translation of  עד עולם is “forever,” unless
> >context  prevents such an open-ended statement.
> >
> >
> >
> > When I was involved in translation work, I happened to work in a
> > language that, like Hebrew, did not have the “forever” concept.  But
> > their equivalent preposition phrase, “adde noka,” was well understood
> > by people to normally refer to an endless time unless otherwise prevented.
> >
> >
> >
> > Just out of curiosity, what would you suggest as a more “correct” meaning?
> >
> >
> >
> > Paul Zellmer
> >
> >
> >
> > *From:* fred burlingame [mailto:tensorpath AT gmail.com]
> > *Sent:* Thursday, December 09, 2010 4:43 PM
> > *To:* Paul Zellmer
> > *Cc:* B-Hebrew
> > *Subject:* Re: [b-hebrew] Song of Songs 1:12
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello Paul:
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks for your nice and explanatory comments.
> >
> >
> >
> > The question remains however. The niv committee, in its wisdom,
> > instructs that the little phrase עד עולם means "forever."
> >
> >
> >
> > http://www.biblestudytools.com/1-chronicles/23-13.html
> >
> >
> >
> > http://www.biblegateway.com/niv/translators-notes/
> >
> >
> >
> > Is that meaning of the hebrew phrase correct?...
> >
> >
> >
> > I await your advices.
> >
> >
> >
> > regards,
> >
> >
> >
> > fred burlingame