Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Steve Miller" <smille10 AT sbcglobal.net>]

> From: kenneth greifer
> 
> Steve,
> 
> Thank you for answering my posting. I think you and I are understanding
> what I wrote differently.
> 
> > 1. You are using mi as a relative pronoun whose antecedent is the Lord
> of
> > hosts. Mi is never used as a relative pronoun. The examples you give are
> > cases where mi has the meaning of "whoever", which is not a relative
> > pronoun. "Whoever" does not take an antecedent. It is a pronoun, but not
> a
> > relative pronoun.
> 
> 
> I guess I should have written "whoever" instead of "who". I thought "who"
> could also be understood as "whoever". The L-rd of hosts is not who "mi"
> is referring to.

[Steve Miller] OK.
> 
> >
> > 2. You are taking "et" to mean "with" connecting 2 nouns. Can you give
> me an
> > example of where "et" means "with"? Can you give me an example where
> "et"
> > links 2 nouns by supplying the meaning "with"?
> 
> 
> I just assumed "et" could mean "with" in this quote because it is
> translated as "with" in some quotes. I don't know if there are any special
> rules for how it is used.
> 
[Steve Miller] "et" cannot act as a preposition to relate 2 nouns. This
point alone is a killer for the 2 proposed translations.

There are commentaries that say "et" can mean "with", but they mean only for
relating a verb with an object. The verses that I have seen used to show
that "et" can add the meaning of "with" between verb and object were very
unconvincing to me.

> >
> > 3. The 1st translation makes "My Spirit", The Lord of host's Spirit,
> > something negative.
> >
> I don't understand what you mean. I was trying to say that the quote might
> say "not in power, and not in might, but in My spirit, says the L-rd of
> hosts, whoever is with the great mountain (in spirit) before Zerubbabel is
> to a plain (in spirit)". It sounds better to me as "whoever is with the
> great mountain (in spirit) is to a plain (in spirit) before Zerubbabel."
> 
[Steve Miller] I had misunderstood your meaning. But no need to further
discuss so long as point #2 kills it.
> 
> > 4. I don't understand the 2nd translation. It adds the word "Me" after
> > "before", but "Me" isn't there.
> 
> "Not in power and not in might, but in My spirit, whoever is with the
> great mountain (in spirit) before Me, Zerubbabel, is to a plain (in
> spirit)." I thought in this quote "before" could say "before Me" and be
> about Zerubbabel as the one with the big mountain (large amount of spirit)
> and whoever is with him is to a plain in spirit (small or no spirit).
> >
[Steve Miller] I guess you could add 'Me' after "before", since the
difference between "before" and "before me" is just in the vowels.

> > 5. The unamended text makes fine sense. The thing that God will do will
> not
> > be by an army, nor by strength, but by His Spirit. A mountain is a very
> big
> > difficulty in the way. What is the problem with the common translation?
> >
> I don't think the words actually say what the translation usually says. Do
> you think the words actually say what the translation says? There are
> better educated people who could answer this than us, but they are
> probably busy or not interested in this discussion.

[Steve Miller] Yes, I think the Hebrew words say what the translations say.
Can you identify a specific problem with the common translation?
> 

-Steve Miller
Detroit
www.voiceinwilderness.info