Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Yitzhak Sapir <yitzhaksapir AT gmail.com>]

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:09 PM, Brakwrote:
>> Since I'm sure we've run through the guard interrogative/definite article
>> example quite a bit, and since my example of the queen and her king
>> seems to have lost something in the translation, I figured some more
>> examples might be useful:
>
> Yeah - I had no idea what that (the queen/king comment) meant. lol :)

I hope you understand it now.

>> qivcu "gather them!" 1 Sam 7:5
>> qibbacu "they gathered" Joel 2:6
>
> Vowel signs are different.

Huh?

>> xizqu "be strong!" Deut 31:6
>> xizzaqu "they strengthened" Jer 5:3
>
> Vowel signs are different.

Huh??

(Just add additional question marks to the
"Huh" in the following examples).

> is18:5,9 <NIC.FH> - Common Noun, Feminine Plural of <NIC.FH>
> gn40:10,7 <NIC./FH.> - Common Noun, Masculine Singular of <N"C> / Suffix:3rd
> Person Feminine Singular
>
> In this example you were half way there - they two words are identical
> graphically except for a variation in the dagesh marks. But they have
> different morpheme breaks. The first is just one morpheme, but the second is
> two - a "base" and a suffix. So this example doesn't apply to my question.

I wouldn't know.  You never answered my questions allowing me to
understand what you want.

>> middavar "over the words of" 2 Sam 19:44
>> midbar "desert" Ex 19:1
>
> Vowel signs are different.

Huh again...

>> There even appears one case where a dagesh qal appears phonemic:
>> licvo "to be on duty" Nu 4:23, Num 8:24
>> licbo "to fight against" Is 31:4
>> However, [b] and [v] are already known to be phonemic in Tiberian
>> Hebrew.  In fact, in the above example, perhaps Num 4:23, 8:24 are
>> derived from the Qal of cwy but have come to be spelled as lcb)
>> because the Qal is so rare.  If this is the case, it might suggest
>> the w > v shift in Israel was very early.
>
> nu4:23,13 and nu8:24,10 <LI/C:BO)> - Preposition / Qal Common of <CB)>
> is31:4,27 <LI/C:B.O)> - Preposition / Qal Common of <CB)>
> This one meets all the criteria except for a major one- they all mean the
> same thing.
> Where are you getting the translation variation from?

Where are you getting your Bible from?  Really, you are complaining the
vocalization is not the same but in the first example up above, it is exact.
Even the cantillation mark is the same.  I am using here the Breuer Bible
 which marks deviations in the Aleppo and Leningrad codices and it doesn't
mark any for the above verse!  Maybe your Bible marks a schewa na with a
hataf but then that is not in the manuscript.  (I would verify it against the
WLC online Tanach right now, but it's not loading).

In any case, the translation here is based on HALOT.  Have you considered
reading these verses?  I think even a basic reading shows that the ideas are
conceptually rather different: In Num. the people are coming to work and in
Isaiah God is going to fight.

>> Note: None of the above information may be used in commercial
>> projects of any kind, including (but not limited to) translations
>> and/or websites that charge a fee for entering or using parts of
>> that website.
>
> lol - You can't copyright information. :)

Well, I don't really intend to go into a long argument on this.
Just don't go and use the examples I'm giving you in commercial works.
The above was not information that was easy to come by.  I got it using
a computer program that I wrote, using html files from Mechon Mamre.
Mechon Mamre copyrights the work and effort placed into encoding the
Bible and their verification of it on the computer.  You can look at their
copyright notice here:  http://mechon-mamre.org/
Anyway, I am providing you the results of this effort on the understanding
that you would not make commercial use of it and that if you do, you agree
to fully compensate me for my work on my own terms, and also for you to
comply with whatever expectations the people at Mechon Mamre will request.
But none of this should concern you unless you were asking us to do the
work from which you expect to profit commercially.

And for what it's worth, the computer program didn't invent new vowel
signs.  It only knows to match up vowel signs that are exact.

Yitzhak Sapir