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  • From: dwashbur AT nyx.net
  • To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Where Is Jacob's Ladder?
  • Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 17:07:23 -0800

Howdy Karl,

On 9 Nov 2007 at 15:19, K Randolph wrote:

> Dave:
>
> On 11/9/07, dwashbur AT nyx.net <dwashbur AT nyx.net> wrote:
> >
> > On 9 Nov 2007 at 14:51, JimStinehart AT aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > Could you please explain to me the basis for the following key
> > > contention of yours?
> > > "[T]he grammar of the clause supports the translation 'a certain
> > > place'...." I am obviously missing something here. Are we looking at
> > > the same Hebrew letters? Or am I missing the significance of one
> > > Hebrew letter in the text? Why "a certain place", instead of "a place"?
> >
> > Because this is how biblical Hebrew indicated such a thing. See under
> > Speiser below.
> >
> > No, the patach under the B indicates the assimilated definite article. I
> > didn't go there because you've already said you reject the pointing. At
> > the same time, you must have some kind of pronunciation pattern, so
> > whether it's the Masoretic or something else is pretty much academic.
> > Karl reads unpointed text as well, but I suspect he probably reads a
> > definite article here, as well. He can correct me on that if I'm wrong,
> > because I'm essentially guessing :-) It's the difference between B'MAQOM
> > and BAMAQOM, whether you actually notate it or not. Basically, the
> > literary meaning is "THE place [that we're going to talk about in this
> > part of the story]. It's better English idiom, and hence more readable
> > for the average English reader, to say "a certain place."
> >
> Here is a case where Biblical Hebrew uses a definite article and good
> English an indefinite one. As for the meaning, the context indicates
> the following interpretation:

So I was correct that you read a definite article here?

> > OTOH, if you eliminate the definite article, you have "a place [which is
> > where this story happens], which again amounts to "a certain place" in
> > good English.
>
> Right.
>
> > .... The difference is one of focus: with the article, the place is
> > something prominent, as in this case; without the article, it's just a
> > place for the prominent events to take place. Does that clear it up?
> >
> Here I think you overemphasize the importance of the definite article.
> I think its position here is more to fulfill the expectations of
> grammar than to change meaning.

Not sure I follow. Could you elaborate a little?

> > Dave Washburn
>
> As for the grammatical structure, we expect to see a definite article,
> in translation into English, an indefinite article, from context this
> is not jes' enny ole place, but where something important happens.
> It's the important place, but Jacob didn't know it yet.
>
> You know, I'm larnin' a lot o' Hebrew from these discussions.

Me too, also :-)

Dave Washburn
As a French hippie might say, "Je ne creuse pas!"




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