Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Harold R. Holmyard III" <hholmyard AT ont.com>]

Dear Karl,

> The only "evidence" you have provided are your "experts" and
> "traditions". They are not data. They are interpretations of
> data that can be wrong. Even _all_ of them. Unanimity in
> error is still error.
>
> Experts and traditions are useful and often provide insights
> that help with understanding, but when I find that the
> experts and traditions contradict methodology, I tend to go
> with methodology.
>
> The search for truth is not a democratic process based on
> majority vote.

HH: Yada yada. Here is what I gave you, which you have ignored so far:

>  > HH: You have not demonstrated that X+)T  ever means "error" anywhere
> >  else. It may never have had that meaning in ancient Hebrew. One
> >  lexicon lists five nouns related to the verb X+). They may have
>  > differed from one another in meaning.
> >
> Judges 20:16 shows the root meaning of to err: don't tell
> me that those slingers were morally not sinning.

HH: That's the verb. I asked about the noun. That was my point. One 
meaning of the verb is not necessarily transferable to this noun. 
Does the noun show this meaning elsewhere. The lexicons do not give 
"error" as a meaning of the noun X+)T. The word occurs 298 times, and 
the lexicons never give "error" as its meaning.

>  > >  > > "Justice exults a nation,
>  > >>  but undeserved good favor of peoples errs."
>
>  > HH: Even the general use makes no sense. Kindness is a good thing to
> >  show people.
> Not in the context, where kindness is done at the expense
> of justice. If a murderer is set free instead of executed,
> that is undeserved kindness that is injust. Genesis 9:6.

HH: But the word means kindness, goodness. You can't insert the idea 
"undeserved" and then claim that that is a main idea in this verse.

>  > HH: You don't seem to realize that if you come up with an
> >  interpretation of Scripture that no one has had in two thousand or
> >  more years of study on the topic, it is probably incorrect.
>
> Just because it is old, that doesn't make it correct. Just
> because it is new, does not make it better. Each has to
> stand on its own two feet.

HH: You have neither refuted the old or proved the new.

>  > HH: I don't see that you have tried to prove this assertion anywhere.
> >  I don't see how it would work in Prov. 25:10.
> To put that verse into modern English, if you have an
> argument with someone else, argue with him, and don't
> reveal other consultations, lest the one who hears it
> treats you well undeservably and your evil report will
> not return. As I understand these verses, if one gets
> people to treat him well based on falsehood (more likely,
> one sided portrayal), when they find out that they have
> been snookered into supporting him (taking sides in his
> argument), they will make sure that he has a bad
> reputation at least in their own hearts. Like all
> proverbs, I am reading between the lines, looking at
> the actions, to try to make sense of what is said.
>
> This is the same sort of reading between the lines to
> make sense of "a stitch in time saves nine" or "pretty
> is as pretty does".

HH: The proverb does not say what you're claiming it does. It would 
need more words to say all that. As it stands, it can't say that:

HCSB Prov 25:9-10: make your case with your opponent without 
revealing another's secret; otherwise the one who hears will disgrace 
you, and you'll never live it down.

HH: You want for verse 10: "otherwise the one who hears will treat 
you well undeservedly, and you will never live it down.

HH: That makes no sense. You would need more explanatory words to get 
your idea. It is important to know that the verb XSD means to be 
kind, as many lexicons and many scholars have established. The noun 
is similar. The idea that the word XSD explicitly includes the idea 
"undeserved" or "undeservedly" is incorrect. Look at this verse for 
example:

Gen. 40:14 But when all goes well with you, remember me and show me 
kindness; mention me to Pharaoh and get me out of this prison.

HH: Joseph is asking for kindness specifically because the man owes 
it to him, not because it is undeserved.

HH: And you never dealt with one main objection I had to your 
handling of Lev 20:17. Since you did not like the NIV translation, I 
will use the HCSB:

HCSB LEV 20:17 If a man marries his sister, whether his father's 
daughter or his mother's daughter, and they have sexual relations, it 
is a disgrace. They must be publicly cut off from their people. He 
has had sexual intercourse with his sister; he will bear his 
punishment

HH: The punishment is not the XSD here. It is the sexual relations 
that are the XSD, and they are not "undeserved good favor."

                                        Yours,
                                        Harold Holmyard