Biblical Hebrew Forum

[George F Somsel <gfsomsel AT juno.com>]

On Sat, 2 Apr 2005 10:17:11 EST Myshalom777 AT aol.com writes:
In a message dated 02/04/2005 16:05:34 GMT Daylight Time,
gfsomsel AT juno.com writes:
Let me turn the tables on you a bit.  This birth is said to be a sign to
Ahaz.  A sign would need to be something which the one to whom it is
given would witness.  If it is regarding the birth of Jesus Christ, an
event several hundred years later, how then is it a sign to Ahaz since he
will never witness it?  Also, if it is regarding a nearer event as well
as a more remote event (i.e. that there was some kind of fulfilment in
the time it was originally given, and if it refers to a virgin birth, are
there then two virgin births in scripture?

george
gfsomsel


It seems to me Mark Eddy gave a very good response to your point almost a
year ago when this topic came up on this list. Here it is again :

=====

Subj:Re: [b-hebrew] Isaiah 7:13 ha-alma and xarah 
Date:12/05/2004 18:23:34 GMT Daylight Time
From:markeddy AT adams.net
To:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Sent from the Internet (Details)


Isaiah does not say that the sign is "for Ahas." Ahaz refused to ask for
a sign.(v. 12). So instead of giving a sign of Ahaz's choosing, the Lord
will give a sign to the "house of David" (v. 13). In  verse 11
Isaiah addressed Ahaz with the singular Sha(aL LKa ("Listen, you!") but
in verse 13 Isaiah switches to referring to the "house of David" in the
plural (MiKKeM, and the verb TaL(U, also LaKem in verse 14). Ahaz
is just the most recent part of the house of David, which has tried God's
patience for a long time. The sign is for the whole house of David, not
primarily for the king in that house at that particular  time.

Mark Eddy 
_______________________________________________
b-hebrew mailing list
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===================

Celal Berker
www.eefc.co.uk
www.fiec.org.uk
www.hristiyan.net

_______________

That strikes me as pure sophism.  The sign is clearly for Ahaz.  

1.  Ahaz is instructed to ask for a sign
2.  He refuses (most piously, of course)
3.  The prophet then says that the LORD would therefore name the sign

Then, examine the nature of the sign.
1. A young woman is pregnant and is to give birth
2. She will give a particular name to her child (Immanuel)
3. BEFORE THE CHILD IS WEANED the Assyrians will no longer be a power.

The sequence in which prophesy is given as well as the prophesy itself
demand a nearly immediate fulfilment.
  
george
gfsomsel
___________
>From peterkirk AT qaya.org  Sat Apr  2 10:33:10 2005
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To: Myshalom777 AT aol.com
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Almah vs. Bethulah in Isaiah 7
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On 02/04/2005 16:17, Myshalom777 AT aol.com wrote:

> 
>...
> 
>
>From:markeddy AT adams.net
>  
>

>... The sign is for  the whole house of David, not 
>primarily for the king in that house at that  particular  time.
> 
>Mark Eddy
>  
>

Possibly, but there is then a logical problem in taking this as the 
virgin birth of the Messiah. For the Messiah is supposed to be the 
representative in his own time of the House of David - and this is 
certainly how the NT authors understood him. So is the virgin birth of a 
child supposed to be a sign to that child? Well, I suppose it could be a 
sign to that child that he should understand himself to be the Messiah 
and take on that role. But that doesn't seem to fit either Isaiah's or 
Matthew's use of the passage.

-- 
Peter Kirk
peter AT qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/



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