Biblical Hebrew Forum

[David P Donnelly <davedonnelly1 AT juno.com>]

Peter Kirk says:

>>>
It is highly improbable that L has been tampered with in any  systematic 
way. 
Why would you suggest that?
Remember that there are a number of other MSS of comparable date which
usually read the same.
>>>

Dave says:

Maybe I should ask the question in a different manner.

The Ben Chayyim Hebrew text preserves the Tetragrammaton in the Hebrew
Word #3068 form,
[yod-simple shewa-he-holem-vav-qamets-he] 
over 6000 times.

You mentioned previously that this Hebrew word #3068 form was only found
44 times in the BHS.


http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/software/mac/online.bible/BHS-BHM.Rea
d_Me.txt
The following information was found at the link above,
under the heading below:
INTRODUCTION TO THE HEBREW BIBLE PROPER
>>>
Because of the presence or absence of the so-called "vowel letters" 
(consonants used to indicate vowels) 
in unpointed MSS, however, 
the consonantal Hebrew text as found in the Masoretic manuscripts 
splits into two unique but complementary traditions: 
that of Ben Asher (circa centuries 9-10 CE) 
and that of Ben Chayyim (circa centuries 13-14 CE). 
>>>

Peter, 

Could you help me to understand how Ben Chayyim ends up creating a Hebrew
Text
in which the Tetragrammaton is found over 6000 times,
in the Hebrew word #3068 form.

Are there any extant M.T.'s between 1010 A.D. and 1525 A.D. 
in which the Tetragrammaton is preserved over 6000 times in the Hebrew
word #3068 form? 

Peter,

You mentioned:

>>>
But it seems clear that by the time that the Aleppo codex was  written, 
some time before L, 
the traditional way of writing the  divine  name was already more or less
fixed 
and has not been changed since.
>>>

Certainly Ben Chayyim has changed the writing of the divine name.
Did Ben Chayyim corrupt the Hebrew Text?

Dave Donnelly



Dave



On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:15:56 -0700 Peter Kirk <peterkirk AT qaya.org>
writes:
> On 22/09/2003 05:43, David P Donnelly wrote:
> 
> >While taking a quick look at the document:
> >"Issues in the Representation of Pointed Hebrew in Unicode (3rd 
> draft)",
> >on Peter Kirk’s web site,
> >http://www.qaya.org/
> >I discovered that at Genesis 3:14 in the BHS,
> >the Tetragrammaton is shown just as it is shown in Hebrew word 
> #3068,
> >of James Strong's Concordance.
> >http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/264290/hebrewword3068.jpg
> >At Ezekiel 12:25 [in the BHS Text],
> >a variant of this form is found,
> >which looks almost identical to Hebrew word #3068,
> >until you examine it under a magnifying glass.
> >Under a magnifying glass, 
> >it can be observed that there is a diamond shaped cantillation 
> mark,
> >[Revia ??]
> >not a holem, 
> >above the waw/vav
> >
> This is indeed a Revia.
> 
> >At Exodus 6:3 [in the BHS Text]
> >another variant of YHWH is found,
> >in which no holem is found above the waw/vav,
> >yet there is a qamets under the waw/vav,
> >and a simple shewa under the yod.
> >
> This is the commonest version, occurring several thousand times with 
> 
> various accents.
> 
> >I have chosen only to present the above three variants,
> >while ignoring the variants of YHWH found in the BHS Text,
> >when YHWH immediately follows Adonay,
> >or
> >when YHWH immediately precedes Adonay.
> >The question I am asking is:
> >Are there any Hebrew scholars who have examined the Leningrad 
> Codex,
> >and believe that the Leningrad Codex has been tampered with,
> >at any of the above three mentioned variants?
> >Dave Donnelly
> >
> >  
> >
>  From a quick search I found that in eBHS the divine name is written 
> 
> with about 115 different combinations of vowels and accents. These 
> different forms are used to fit with the context and with the 
> cantillation of the verse. So you have to consider 115 variants not 
> three.
> 
> It is highly improbable that L has been tampered with in any 
> systematic 
> way. Why would you suggest that? Remember that there are a number of 
> 
> ther MSS of comparable date which usually read the same. Of course 
> anything could have happened before the earliest pointed MSS which 
> we 
> have. But it seems clear that by the time that the Aleppo codex was 
> written, some time before L, the traditional way of writing the 
> divine 
> name was already more or less fixed and has not been changed since.
> 
> -- 
> Peter Kirk
> peter AT qaya.org (personal)
> peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
> http://www.qaya.org/
> 
> 
> 
> 
>From peterkirk AT qaya.org  Mon Sep 22 19:42:31 2003
Return-Path: <peterkirk AT qaya.org>
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from ns3.eukhost.com (unknown [64.5.60.201])
        by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0A3E20144
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:42:31 -0400 
(EDT)
Received: from [213.162.124.237] (helo=qaya.org)
        by ns3.eukhost.com with asmtp (Exim 4.20)
        id 1A1aKG-0003zo-Rk; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:42:41 +0100
Message-ID: <3F6F88E0.3010800 AT qaya.org>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:42:24 -0700
From: Peter Kirk <peterkirk AT qaya.org>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US;
        rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624
X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us, az, ru, tr, he, el, fr, de
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: David P Donnelly <davedonnelly1 AT juno.com>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Variants of YHWH in the BHS Text
References: <20030922.191847.2620.3.davedonnelly1 AT juno.com>
In-Reply-To: <20030922.191847.2620.3.davedonnelly1 AT juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information
X-MailScanner: Found to be clean
X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse,
        please include it with any abuse report
X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - ns3.eukhost.com
X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - lists.ibiblio.org
X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12]
X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - qaya.org
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2
Precedence: list
List-Id: A forum on the Hebrew Bible, its language and interpretation
        <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:42:32 -0000

On 22/09/2003 16:18, David P Donnelly wrote:

> Peter Kirk says:
>  
> >>>
> It is highly improbable that L has been tampered with in any  
> systematic  way.
> Why would you suggest that?
> Remember that there are a number of other MSS of comparable date which 
> usually read the same.
> >>>
>  
> Dave says:
>  
> Maybe I should ask the question in a different manner.
>  
> The Ben Chayyim Hebrew text preserves the Tetragrammaton in the Hebrew 
> Word #3068 form,
> [yod-simple shewa-he-holem-vav-qamets-he]
> over 6000 times.
>  
> You mentioned previously that this Hebrew word #3068 form was only 
> found 44 times in the BHS.
>  
>  
> _http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/software/mac/online.bible/BHS-BHM.Read_Me.txt_
>
> The following information was found at the link above,
>
> under the heading below:
>
> INTRODUCTION TO THE HEBREW BIBLE PROPER
>
> >>>
>
> Because of the presence or absence of the so-called "vowel letters"
>
> (consonants used to indicate vowels)
>
> in unpointed MSS, however,
>
> the consonantal Hebrew text as found in the Masoretic manuscripts
>
> splits into two unique but complementary traditions:
>
> that of Ben Asher (circa centuries 9-10 CE)
>
> and that of Ben Chayyim (circa centuries 13-14 CE).
>
> >>>
>  
> Peter,
>  
> Could you help me to understand how Ben Chayyim ends up creating 
> a Hebrew Text
> in which the Tetragrammaton is found over 6000 times,
> in the Hebrew word #3068 form.
>  
> Are there any extant M.T.'s between 1010 A.D. and 1525 A.D.
> in which the Tetragrammaton is preserved over 6000 times in the Hebrew 
> word #3068 form? 
>  

I don't know. I know that the oldest MSS don't usually write the holem 
on the divine name.

> Peter,
>  
> You mentioned:
>  
> >>>
> But it seems clear that by the time that the Aleppo codex was  written,
> some time before L,
> the traditional way of writing the  divine  name was already more or 
> less fixed
> and has not been changed since.
> >>>
>  
> Certainly Ben Chayyim has changed the writing of the divine name.
> Did Ben Chayyim corrupt the Hebrew Text?
>  

Well, it seems that Ben Chayyim did follow a changed tradition. Whether 
that is corruption or improvement is a value judgment. I am not an 
expert on this.

> Dave Donnelly
>  
>  
>  
> Dave
>  
>  


-- 
Peter Kirk
peter AT qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/