Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Peter Kirk" <Peter_Kirk AT sil.org>]

Part of the confusion arises here in that the form Adonai/Adonoy can be just
a form of Adon, meaning "my lords", plus I think it is pointed with qamets
at the end, as always in the divine title, only when in pause. Thus there is
some ambiguity, possibly deliberate, over this form when it occurs at
Genesis 18:3, 19:2,18, where the reference is again to angels (or however
you might interpret this). I don't know of any (other) occurrences of Adonai
(with qamets) with human referent. So when someone wrote "(The second form
of "Adonai" is used in the plural, of men, very occasionally.)", perhaps
they were thinking that the referents in these verses are men, not angels or
God himself? Then there is the textually doubtful Ezra 10:3, which could
refer to either Ezra or God.

There are certainly a number of times where Adon is used to refer to God,
especially in the expression "the lord of the whole earth". (This is the
full (?) list according to BDB: Ex 23:17, 34:23, Dt 10:17, Jos 3:11,13, Neh
8:10, 10:30, Ps 8:2,10, 97:5, 114:7, 135:5, 136:3, 147:5 Is 1:24, 3:1,
10:(16?),23, 19:4, 51:22, Hos 12:15, Mi 4:13, Zc 4:14, 6:5, Mal 1:6, 3:1).
But that is not the same as saying that it is a divine title. Thus in
English, one might use "Master" in reference to God, but it would not
normally be considered a divine title. On the other hand, the form Adonai is
almost always a divine title.

In answer to Dan Dyke's point, I am here referring to the Masoretic Text and
not trying to dig into the background of that text. That is a complex can of
worms which I don't want to open.

As for search engines, I wasn't thinking of Internet ones, rather the search
facilities which come with various Bible study packages e.g. BibleWorks,
Gramcord. I am sure they could answer your questions, at a price.

Peter Kirk

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Schmuel [mailto:schmuel AT bigfoot.com]
> Sent: 02 September 2001 13:57
> To: b-hebrew AT franklin.oit.unc.edu
> Cc: Peter_Kirk AT sil.org
> Subject: RE: adoni (adonee) applied to angels
>
>
> Shalom b-hebrew,
>
> Thank you Peter for a quick and helpful response..
>
> Peter Kirk,
> >ADONI is ADON "(human) lord or master" with the first person singular
> >possessive suffix. Don't confuse it with ADONAI, the divine title. In BDB
> >there is a list of many of the occurrences of ADONI, including (as the
> >article no doubt points out) Ps 110:1. Or try any search engine.
>
> Schmuel
> Yes, understand the distinction between adonai (adonoy in New Yawk)
> and adoni
>
> Though I don't know an Internet search engine that makes the distinction
>    simple to find, I use www.crosswalk.com lexicon on the Net and mainly
>    the Jay Green Interlinear to look at the Hebrew words ... suggestions ?
>
> Now it may be overstating to use the expression  ---
>
> ADONI is ADON "(human) lord or master"  ...... since we have
> these examples..
>
>     a)  adoni is also used for angels  (in the 3 cases we are discussing)
>     b)  adon itself, according to the same source, is used for YHWH
> -----------
> http://anthonybuzzard.home.mindspring.com/BD86.htm
> 2. ADON ....Apart from about 30 occasions where it refers to the Divine
> Lord....
> -----------
> (I don't have these 30 occasions handy, as I don't have BDB .. yet :-)
>
> now it seems it would be more appropriate to say about adoni..
>
> ADONI - lord or master, not used in reference to YHWH (or Deity)
> ADON  - lord or master (used in various ways)
>
> Peter
> >As for specific references to angels, BDB mentions Jos 5:14, Jdg 6:13.
>
> Schmuel
> Thank you Peter, these are exactly what I was looking for..
> (For reference I put the Scripture references at bottom of the post..)
>
> As for Adonai, the Divine Title, if this is accurate (from the
> COG website)
>
> 3. ADONAI
> (The second form of "Adonai" is used in the plural, of men, very
> occasionally.)
>
> Would that qualify as an exception that should be included in
> calling Adonai
> the divine title ? ... or is this a form used exclusively for
> plural of men
> only and
> therefore doesn't mitigate on the expression "Divine Title" ...
>
> (similar to the way adonov, his master, tho quite similar to adonai,
>   seemingly would not ever be used for the Creator)
>
> I would be interested in knowing those examples and looking at the exact
> difference in the plural of men form in the Hebrew spelling ...
>
> Thank you for you assistance on all this :-)
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------------------------------------
> One other interesting thing I did discover in this is that in the
> Pentateuch
> the Tetragrammaton is used in writing about the Creator, yet the
> speakers referring to him always use Adonai .. (I am omitting any
> concern for usage of Elohim or other forms in this observation)
> This distinction in usage does not carry forward into the rest of Tenakh
> where Boaz uses the Tetragrammaton directly in speaking a
> blessing/greeting
> (thought this may be the only exception to not speaking the
> Tetragrammaton)
> while Adonai begins to be used in writing about the Creator..
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------------------------------------
> Joshua 5:13-14 (KJV)
> And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted
> up his eyes
> and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with
> his sword
> drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou
> for us, or for our adversaries?
> And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now
> come. And
> Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him,
> What saith **my lord** unto his servant?
>
> Judges 6:11-13
> And there came an angel of the LORD, and sat under an oak which was in
> Ophrah, that pertained unto Joash the Abiezrite: and his son Gideon
> threshed wheat by the winepress, to hide it from the Midianites.
> And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him, and said unto him,
> The LORD is
> with thee, thou mighty man of valour.
> And Gideon said unto him, Oh **my Lord**, if the LORD be with us,
> why then
> is all this befallen us? and where be all his miracles which our fathers
> told us of, saying, Did not the LORD bring us up from Egypt? but now the
> LORD hath forsaken us, and delivered us into the hands of the Midianites.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------------------------------------
>   Schmuel
> > > http://www.mindspring.com/~anthonybuzzard/BD86.htm
> > >     SIT  THOU AT  MY  RIGHT  HAND (Psalm 110:1) by Allon
> Maxwell Sept 1998
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >     4. ADONI
> > >     "It appears 195 times, and is used almost entirely of human
> > > lords (but occasionally of angels).
> > >
> > >   Daniel 12:8
> > >   And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what
> > > shall be the end of these things?
> >
> > >    Can anyone here help with some others .. ?
>
> Schmuel AT bigfoot.com
> Messianic_Apologetic-subscribe AT yahoogroups.com
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic
>
>