Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Shoshanna Walker <rosewalk AT concentric.net>]

I am not saying that the word does not mean virgin in some contexts

I am saying that it does not mean virgin in ALL contexts, including Ketuba

The word is used to denote a woman who was not previously married. 
Everyone is free to assume, or not, as they wish, if this means 
necessarily, that she is a "virgin" or not.

Shoshanna



> Shoshana,
> The topic under discussion is not the meaning, history,
> or sources of ketubot.
> The topic is simply the meaning of the word betulah.
> You have shown that the word is used in ketubot, and it
> is used even if the woman is not technically a virgin.
> You have not provided any evidence that even tho the word is
> used for women who are not virgins, that the  word therefore does
> not mean virgin.
> In fact, you have shown it does mean virgin. You have stated that
> it is not used for women who have previously been married.
> You have also stated that it is not used for unmarried women who
> have children. Therefore one could conclude that rabbis, husbands,
> friends, etc. are going to assume that an unmarried woman
> without chidlren is a virgin  even if there is no evidence of a
> betulim/hymen.
> This is because, as you have stated, there are other reasons for losing
> one's hymen.
>
> On a side note,  a friend of mine, Kenneth Stow, was doing research on
> a Jewish archive from medieval Vienna I think. He found quite a few cases
> where young girls 3 on up were brought to doctors to be verified that their
> hymens were not intact. Stow conjectured that this was so that if there
> was no betulim on their wedding night, they will already have the
> certificate from
> the doctor that their hymans were broken naturally.
>
> Liz
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Shoshanna Walker [mailto:rosewalk AT concentric.net]
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 9:45 PM
> > To: Liz Fried
> > Cc: b-hebrew AT franklin.oit.unc.edu
> > Subject: RE: virgin: _BETHULAH_ and/or _(ALMAH_
> >
> >
> > >Shoshanah, the only reason that betula is written in ketubot
> > >for unmarried women today
> >
> >
> > and always
> >
> >
> > >is that no one is going to ask,
> > >it's a question of modesty.
> >
> >
> > Not the only reason
> >
> > Liz, there is a whole history to the Ketuba, which no one on this
> > list is addressing, when, why and how it was first instituted,
> > who/what were the rabbis trying to protect, and for what reason,
> > where they got their ideas from, what were the reasons for legally
> > clarifying a woman's status, what were the obligations of the groom
> > and his family, how was this worded in the Ketuba.
> >
> > I am a calligrapher and Ketuba artist since 1973, it is my business
> > to know and to have researched, I am not saying that there is not
> > more that I can learn about the subject, I am saying that there is a
> > great deal about the subject which is not being addressed in these
> > conversations.
> >
> > I will not talk about it any more on list
> >
> > If you think that there is any more that you can know about this
> > issue, then email me privately
> >
> > If you think that you already know it all, then fine.
> >
> > Shoshanna
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >Liz
> > >
> > >
> > >---
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> >