Biblical Hebrew Forum

[peter_kirk AT sil.org]

Please can you explain "before NB and NA". And what is GAG?

Of course even if we can date the expression "Ur Kasdim", it tells us 
nothing about where Abraham may have come from, and not much about the 
dating of Genesis or the relevant part of it (11:28,31). No doubt the 
author would have used the name in use at his/her own time for the 
city which (according to his/her narration) Abraham came from, at 
least if it was still a well-known place. I doubt if the author had 
the sense of anachronism which some of us have now, which stops us 
saying that these places are in Turkey or Iraq (though apparently it's 
OK to use Greek names like Syria and Mesopotamia anachronistically). 
And the name may have been further updated by editors after the 
original composition of Genesis.

Genesis 11:31 also seems to imply that (in the author's mind at least) 
Ur was quite a long way from Haran. It would be rather ridiculous to 
set out on a long journey to Canaan only to abandon it at the next 
town!

On the other hand, we have the data, new to this thread, that 
according to Deuteronomy 26:5 Abraham was an Aramean. In Genesis, 
Bethuel and Laban are described as Arameans (25:20, 28:5, 31:20,24 - 
Aramaic words are put on the latter's lips, 31:47) and also presented 
as Abraham's nephew (compare 24:47 with 11:27,29) and great-nephew. 
This name may seem to be anachronistic for the traditional patriarchal 
age, but perhaps was given in the sense of "inhabitants of the area 
known as Aram", or maybe they were indeed the ancestors of the people 
who later became well-known as the Arameans. Note that none of them 
are ever described as Kasdim. The data would fit with Terah's clan 
being (proto-)Arameans who had migrated to a southern Ur (later known 
as Ur Kasdim) but later migrated northwards, perhaps back to their 
place of origin in what later become known as Aram or Paddan-Aram.

Peter Kirk


______________________________ Reply Separator 
_________________________________
Subject: Re: Ur Kasdim II
Author:  <yonsaf AT beitberl.beitberl.ac.il> at Internet
Date:    04/01/2000 12:23


Niels Peter Lemche wrote:

> By the way, CANE does not have anything about Arameans before the Iron Age
> (Vol II, the overview of Aramean history and civilization by Paul Dion). 
> Nor 
> does Liverani, Stora (1988), nor Kuhrt, The Ancient Near East, 1995.

[JDSafren] True, that is what I claimed. The 12th century BCE is the 
beginning o
f the
Iron Age.

> Kuhrt
> dos not reckon any source mentioning the Chaldeans before the 9th century
> (but says that they probably were in southern Mesopotamia befofre that date.

[JDSafren] I am not talking about Southern Mesopotamia, and am oposed to the 
groundless claim that Ur Kasdim was located in Southern Mesootamia.
The Aramaic-speaking Chaldeans entered Southern Mesopotamia around the same 
time
 that
the Aramaic-speaking Arameans entered Syria, It was because of this that 
Babylon
ia
slowly went over from Akkadian to Aramean. It is to be concluded that both 
kindr
ed
peoples had originatedin the same area.

BTW, you must take into account that in the Bible the Chaldeans are called 
kasdi
m
<kasdu, whereas in the Babtlonian inscriptions they are already called kaldu 
- s
hift
of $d . ld like the  shift of $t > lt, as in  i$stu > ultu). In other words, 
the
gentilic kasdim entered the Hebrew vocabulary before the consonantal shift 
had 
occurred, which is, I believe (my GAG is not handy) before NB and NA.
Sincerely,
--
Jonathan D. Safren
Dept. of Biblical Studies
Beit Berl College
Beit Berl Post Office 44905
Israel



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