Skip to Content.
Sympa Menu

permaculture - Re: [permaculture] NAPC: Scarcity?

permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: permaculture

List archive

Chronological Thread  
  • From: Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] NAPC: Scarcity?
  • Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 01:26:45 -0700

Toby and all, 

I totally agree that it is all solvable and it's all about design. Early in
the process we discussed the idea of taking longer to put this event on so
that we would have more time to implement a full design. We decided to go
forward because we felt that the value of having a convergence this year
outweighed the downside. We have engaged the design process, but we have
realized that because of the time frame, we would not be able to create an
optimum design. So the question then becomes what is most important - what
will get the most future yield? We are still getting what we feel are key
parts of a permaculture design for this event done. 

For the record, I feel that there are important distinctions between
convergences and conferences, and we need both of them. Conferences focus on
experts giving others information. They are often focused on a one-way flow
of communication. Sometimes there are decisions made or break out sessions
but usually not. 

Converging on a point (meaning a physical location), in order to facilitate
rich energy exchanges is an ancient practice that is quite sustainable. Many
indigenous people have done it at times of necessity. I am currently working
and living at Pine Ridge Lakota reservation - the tribal traditions of
tiospayes (small, extended family localized units) converging for larger
gatherings go back at some length. I just attended a national level powwow
and observed the patterns there. 

Convergences stack functions, creating opportunity for cross-pollination
amongst tribes in a number of ways - historically,this has included an
increased field for selection of mates, strategical alliances and agreements,
and the exchange of tools, horses, seeds, culture, etc. Tribes might hunt
together or do other things where economy of scale matters. I don't think the
concepts of convergence and conference should be collapsed as they hold two
very different functions. There are many elements of permaculture design
present in the convergence model. I'm so happy to hear that Jono and others
will be presenting info about the successes of the NE convergences and guilds
as there are many regions that can potentially benefit from that information.
A convergence can be many things to many people and the regional convergences
have been exploring that edge. It will be interesting to get them together to
compare notes! 

Some have voiced concerns that we aren't ready for a continental convergence.
My view is that things are marching forward in a number of sectors on this
planet, whether we are "ready" for them or not. Therefore, we perhaps need to
push ourselves harder and get ourselves ready, and a continental convergence
may be able to assist with that process. My hope is that some of us at least
will look outward, at the larger patterns in society, and engage in
thoughtful discussions about opportunities and challenges, strengths and
weaknesses. 

I would of course like to get paid for the work of organizing - it is part of
the third ethic of fair share.  The concept of receiving energy for valuable
energy contributed is part of a sustainable system. There are some of us out
there who will do the work whether we are paid or not when we think the job
is important enough. Whether that is the best possible way to do things or
not, we are filling niches that no one else has stepped up to fill. I'm
feeling that it will be worth it on many levels, but I do agree that we need
to tweak the finance model, not just in this one case but overall. 

And there are a number of us interested in addressing this at the
convergence. Financial Permaculture is slated to be a working group there and
it may end up breaking off into more than one. It is a huge subject, and
there are many ways in which permaculture design can be applied more
thoroughly. I hear Scott's comments about invisible structure - it is my
reality that invisible structure is almost always the make-break point of any
design. 

I'm personally interested in many permutations of cooperative models and
looking forward to linking with others of like mind.  I think that financial
structures in our community that truly use the tools, principles and elements
of permaculture are much too few and far between (a scarcity that can be
remedied with abundances) and am  interested in hearing about and supporting
any that do. I agree that there is an abundance of money and we should be
better at tapping into it because we will use it more wisely than many out
there are doing.

I've been talking to various bright lights in the movement about prospective
cooperative models and we are coming up with some creative ideas that we feel
meet everybody's needs. I'm very interested in connecting with anyone who is
serious about creating better models than those being currently used in our
movement. I think it would be good for all of us to consider how we can help
each other and collaborate more than we do, and I feel that in order to make
that happen, we need to create structures that facilitate that. 

I am re-studying Donella Meadows' Thinking in Systems and am reminded that
structure and model can make huge differences in system outcomes. I
personally feel that the subject of economics of convergences and everything
else in permaculture goes much deeper than marketing ploys. I personally got
involved with this project in large part because I want to use intelligent
design to move to the next stage of succession, and I see how meeting
together in working groups, breakouts, etc, can assist that process. We are
continuing to design these sessions for maximum effectiveness and are very
interested in people's suggestions, thoughts and co-creation on that design
process. 

How can we bring the maximum amount of consciousness to the process of
converging? What does that mean, specifically at this time in our history and
in the succession process? What would that look like, at the convergence?
What can each of us bring to this gathering that will contribute to that
consciousness and to an enlightened succession process that results in
increased yields, abundance, ethics, and sanity? These are questions I'm
asking myself regularly as the time draws near.

Best, Koreen
www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow



On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 3:12 PM, Bob Waldrop <bob@bobwaldrop.net> wrote:



I agree this has been a valuable thread.

In my preevious experience in the convention business, generally you
develop your budget based on previous experience.  The absolute hardest
and most knuckle biting conference to present is a new conference, one
without an established record or constituency.  The knucklebiting is
because people always wait until the last minute to book their
attendance and every conference I was ever involved with sold a lot of
tickets in the last two weeks.  Of course "the last two weeks" is
useless or nearly so when it comes to program, because your program is
generally arranged months in advance of the final two weeks before the
event.

I think crowd sourcing some seed money for the next event, or to fund
the planning committee on an on-going basis, would be a great idea.

I also think that establishing a permanent organizing group is a better
idea than handing the convention off to new people in different regions
each year.  In other words, I'm assuming there will be a conversation at
the event about the NEXT event.  One of the options is for local
committees throughout the country to bid for the convention, the other
is to have a permanent planning committee, which possibly could work
with local groups.  I'd vote for the permanent planning committee.

Bob Waldrop, Okie City


On 8/5/2014 1:50 PM, Toby Hemenway wrote:
> I'm gaining a lot from this thread and appreciate everyone's conscientious,
> thoughtful comments. Thomas brings up many good points, and I also want to
> get to a few of Koreen's. I think we are getting to some solutions here. A
> few responses:
>
> On Aug 4, 2014, at 11:27 PM, Thomas Allen <thallen@nwlink.com> wrote:
>
>>  Do we put on an event with volunteer labor at a very low price so young
>>entrants into permaculture can attend or do we put on the best event
>>possible.
> Where I'm trying to go with this is: it is not either/or. It's possible to
> put on excellent events with options that low-income people can afford,

_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
maintenance:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
Google message archive search:
site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
http://www.ipermie.net
Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers
-- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated elements for
synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible human
habitat
>From toby@patternliteracy.com Wed Aug 6 17:07:19 2014
Return-Path: <toby@patternliteracy.com>
X-Original-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix, from userid 20217)
id 3482B219D8; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 17:07:19 -0400 (EDT)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on
mailman1.ibiblio.org
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,
RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1
Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.197])
by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23A67219D0
for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
Wed, 6 Aug 2014 17:07:16 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from [172.16.42.4] (c-76-102-58-203.hsd1.ca.comcast.net
[76.102.58.203])
by mrelay.perfora.net (node=mreueus002) with ESMTP (Nemesis)
id 0MUWfN-1WoZAQ059X-00RJt3; Wed, 06 Aug 2014 23:07:16 +0200
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\))
From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
In-Reply-To: <1407313605.6752.YahooMailNeo@web140801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 14:07:10 -0700
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <3C87E775-A97D-4FBF-813A-5FAAA6E19DE0@patternliteracy.com>
References: <1406922906.88876.YahooMailNeo@web142306.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
<578433D6-C8B8-4524-83DB-439FCE38BE94@patternliteracy.com>
<20E3FEA9-CDC8-4716-980E-96EC0FD2D083@nwlink.com>
<0C2504DB-A5B5-45AE-9B3B-96E1249D1D8A@patternliteracy.com>
<53E148B9.4040209@bobwaldrop.net>
<1407313605.6752.YahooMailNeo@web140801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6)
X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:FUGk9ZrN2mEV/gyv10j9TGlG69qMI40oxR5squVnY4g
KUjYq42W2FWaCI7pixXNy7wdTzJN2nw+/IEz8/kczqnYCwqDaU
6Tu3Fv7mruFtnKU2JP+A1zZLx9wK8PT8CSCBzVMluHLFMq+nA9
E7sYXulmrsLjL3MITz6kfrUyZlYl9OAaSJasHyU6vhc9Umulhi
+m3YRvbVOKSQXSTAnbpdtQaazxOh7pFUIVUCfMJAAXinXoRap3
VUmjcQCD+Nqmj9T65XCkoGkujHnjlnkgEznpdv/fFg4hu0K+Lc
pY7keij1dm7u/BU3azwgA8hG1LYNcbHWGe5zuSHp2NQzxd9c/2
iKjtt6aA4n9ROM5S7Ny5Ep2UA31E5k7F84toELi8lbt2g80hFR
I/46bHjmf+BkbjcUYp+BeupqF763w/Hp1MX-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;
Subject: Re: [permaculture] NAPC: Scarcity?
X-BeenThere: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1
Precedence: list
List-Id: permaculture <permaculture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/options/permaculture>,
<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/>
List-Post: <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 21:07:19 -0000

Koreen, etc--

Lots of good stuff here; thanks for all this. Mostly my comments have been to
encourage us to up our game; to sometimes bemore professional, to appeal to a
wider audience, and to tap into resources that permaculturists have largely
ignored, and I appreciate the other efforts to do this, too. Wonderful that
NAPC can be a stimulus for this and more.

Re the word "convergence." Most permaculture convergences I've attended have
been just as oriented toward lectures and talking heads as conferences, while
I've been to conferences that have been dynamic and interactive. I think the
distinction is primarily one of advertising and an attempt by permaculturists
to say that they are doing something different. A conference is what you make
it.

For most people, the connotations of "conference" are simply a group of
professionals coming together to share their work with each other, though
usually at some classy joint.

But "convergence" has strong connotations that are very class-specific. The
first convergence that I know of was the 1987 "Harmonic Convergence," a New
Age gathering based on an well-hyped astrological "convergence" of the
planets and a misinterpretation of the Mayan calendar (like 2012) in which,
if only enough people came together, the world would enter a new age of
peace. Only hippies and new-agers hold convergences. I have nothing against
hippies; I am one myself. But I would like permaculture to appeal to more
than hippies, and if we market ourselves using hippie, dated New Age
language, we won't do that. I run into pushback from professionals in many
fields on our language and presentation, over and over again.

At "La Convergence," a large permaculture gathering in Quebec that I just
attended, a group of the most influential people there (the site owners, who
are serious movers in the community and fiber-hemp farmers; an
internationally known artist who also pioneered virtual reality software; one
of Canada's best known environmentalists, and several others) all disliked
the word "convergence, and asked why not call it a conference, because that's
what it was. And these people love permaculture. Imagine how others feel.

At a NW Pc Convergence a few years back, several high-ranking policymakers
from Portland attended, arriving in time for the opening ceremony. People
circled up, held hands, sang, did circle dances, and made an invocation to
the earth goddess. That was more than the officials could stand, and they
left before the main events began. Will they ever consider permaculture
seriously again?

So, if we want to reach anyone outside of those already in the
counterculture, we need to stop using exclusive language and practices that
are alienating to most of the population. Many of us are so used to speaking
our language that we don't know how off-putting and class-specific it is. To
attract people out of their usual mode, we need to actually be attractive.
I'm not interested in mainstreaming permaculture, but I do want to
permaculture the mainstream.

And that gets to Koreen's question about events that only offer camping as
lodging. Right there, we've just ruled out most of the population, and put a
burden on those who are flying to attend (tent, sleeping bag, pad, etc on a
plane? $50 bag fee right there) and on those who are older. At a conference,
I want to be at my best, and after 2 nights on hard ground, in a crowd of
tents with people talking till late, coughing and snoring, and waving
flashlights in the dark, I'm a wreck. I was fine with that 20 years ago, but
not now.

This is all fine for NAPC this time, because we're creating an event
primarily for insiders. But if we want to take advantage of permaculture's
potential to change all of society, we need to reach out to the vast majority
who don't think like us or use words like convergence and Gaia.

I think permaculture has done a fine job in serving the alternative community
and reaching out to low-income activists and farmers, but it's been to the
exclusion of serving the rest of society. I'd like to see us develop a more
professional component, more outreach, and more willingness to meet outsiders
where they are.

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com


On Aug 6, 2014, at 1:26 AM, Koreen Brennan via permaculture
<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:

> Toby and all,
>
> I totally agree that it is all solvable and it's all about design. Early in
> the process we discussed the idea of taking longer to put this event on so
> that we would have more time to implement a full design. We decided to go
> forward because we felt that the value of having a convergence this year
> outweighed the downside. We have engaged the design process, but we have
> realized that because of the time frame, we would not be able to create an
> optimum design. So the question then becomes what is most important - what
> will get the most future yield? We are still getting what we feel are key
> parts of a permaculture design for this event done.
>
> For the record, I feel that there are important distinctions between
> convergences and conferences, and we need both of them. Conferences focus
> on experts giving others information. They are often focused on a one-way
> flow of communication. Sometimes there are decisions made or break out
> sessions but usually not.
>
> Converging on a point (meaning a physical location), in order to facilitate
> rich energy exchanges is an ancient practice that is quite sustainable.
> Many indigenous people have done it at times of necessity. I am currently
> working and living at Pine Ridge Lakota reservation - the tribal traditions
> of tiospayes (small, extended family localized units) converging for larger
> gatherings go back at some length. I just attended a national level powwow
> and observed the patterns there.
>
> Convergences stack functions, creating opportunity for cross-pollination
> amongst tribes in a number of ways - historically,this has included an
> increased field for selection of mates, strategical alliances and
> agreements, and the exchange of tools, horses, seeds, culture, etc. Tribes
> might hunt together or do other things where economy of scale matters. I
> don't think the concepts of convergence and conference should be collapsed
> as they hold two very different functions. There are many elements of
> permaculture design present in the convergence model. I'm so happy to hear
> that Jono and others will be presenting info about the successes of the NE
> convergences and guilds as there are many regions that can potentially
> benefit from that information. A convergence can be many things to many
> people and the regional convergences have been exploring that edge. It will
> be interesting to get them together to compare notes!
>
> Some have voiced concerns that we aren't ready for a continental
> convergence. My view is that things are marching forward in a number of
> sectors on this planet, whether we are "ready" for them or not. Therefore,
> we perhaps need to push ourselves harder and get ourselves ready, and a
> continental convergence may be able to assist with that process. My hope is
> that some of us at least will look outward, at the larger patterns in
> society, and engage in thoughtful discussions about opportunities and
> challenges, strengths and weaknesses.
>
> I would of course like to get paid for the work of organizing - it is part
> of the third ethic of fair share. The concept of receiving energy for
> valuable energy contributed is part of a sustainable system. There are some
> of us out there who will do the work whether we are paid or not when we
> think the job is important enough. Whether that is the best possible way to
> do things or not, we are filling niches that no one else has stepped up to
> fill. I'm feeling that it will be worth it on many levels, but I do agree
> that we need to tweak the finance model, not just in this one case but
> overall.
>
> And there are a number of us interested in addressing this at the
> convergence. Financial Permaculture is slated to be a working group there
> and it may end up breaking off into more than one. It is a huge subject,
> and there are many ways in which permaculture design can be applied more
> thoroughly. I hear Scott's comments about invisible structure - it is my
> reality that invisible structure is almost always the make-break point of
> any design.
>
> I'm personally interested in many permutations of cooperative models and
> looking forward to linking with others of like mind. I think that
> financial structures in our community that truly use the tools, principles
> and elements of permaculture are much too few and far between (a scarcity
> that can be remedied with abundances) and am interested in hearing about
> and supporting any that do. I agree that there is an abundance of money and
> we should be better at tapping into it because we will use it more wisely
> than many out there are doing.
>
> I've been talking to various bright lights in the movement about
> prospective cooperative models and we are coming up with some creative
> ideas that we feel meet everybody's needs. I'm very interested in
> connecting with anyone who is serious about creating better models than
> those being currently used in our movement. I think it would be good for
> all of us to consider how we can help each other and collaborate more than
> we do, and I feel that in order to make that happen, we need to create
> structures that facilitate that.
>
> I am re-studying Donella Meadows' Thinking in Systems and am reminded that
> structure and model can make huge differences in system outcomes. I
> personally feel that the subject of economics of convergences and
> everything else in permaculture goes much deeper than marketing ploys. I
> personally got involved with this project in large part because I want to
> use intelligent design to move to the next stage of succession, and I see
> how meeting together in working groups, breakouts, etc, can assist that
> process. We are continuing to design these sessions for maximum
> effectiveness and are very interested in people's suggestions, thoughts and
> co-creation on that design process.
>
> How can we bring the maximum amount of consciousness to the process of
> converging? What does that mean, specifically at this time in our history
> and in the succession process? What would that look like, at the
> convergence? What can each of us bring to this gathering that will
> contribute to that consciousness and to an enlightened succession process
> that results in increased yields, abundance, ethics, and sanity? These are
> questions I'm asking myself regularly as the time draws near.
>
> Best, Koreen
> www.growpermaculture.com
> www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 3:12 PM, Bob Waldrop <bob@bobwaldrop.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> I agree this has been a valuable thread.
>
> In my preevious experience in the convention business, generally you
> develop your budget based on previous experience. The absolute hardest
> and most knuckle biting conference to present is a new conference, one
> without an established record or constituency. The knucklebiting is
> because people always wait until the last minute to book their
> attendance and every conference I was ever involved with sold a lot of
> tickets in the last two weeks. Of course "the last two weeks" is
> useless or nearly so when it comes to program, because your program is
> generally arranged months in advance of the final two weeks before the
> event.
>
> I think crowd sourcing some seed money for the next event, or to fund
> the planning committee on an on-going basis, would be a great idea.
>
> I also think that establishing a permanent organizing group is a better
> idea than handing the convention off to new people in different regions
> each year. In other words, I'm assuming there will be a conversation at
> the event about the NEXT event. One of the options is for local
> committees throughout the country to bid for the convention, the other
> is to have a permanent planning committee, which possibly could work
> with local groups. I'd vote for the permanent planning committee.
>
> Bob Waldrop, Okie City
>
>
> On 8/5/2014 1:50 PM, Toby Hemenway wrote:
>> I'm gaining a lot from this thread and appreciate everyone's
>> conscientious, thoughtful comments. Thomas brings up many good points, and
>> I also want to get to a few of Koreen's. I think we are getting to some
>> solutions here. A few responses:
>>
>> On Aug 4, 2014, at 11:27 PM, Thomas Allen <thallen@nwlink.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Do we put on an event with volunteer labor at a very low price so
>>> young entrants into permaculture can attend or do we put on the best
>>> event possible.
>> Where I'm trying to go with this is: it is not either/or. It's possible to
>> put on excellent events with options that low-income people can afford,
>
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
> maintenance:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> message archives: https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> http://www.ipermie.net
> Avant Geared http://www.avantgeared.com
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers
> -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated elements
> for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible
> human habitat
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
> maintenance:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> message archives: https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> http://www.ipermie.net
> Avant Geared http://www.avantgeared.com
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers
> -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated elements
> for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible
> human habitat





Archive powered by MHonArc 2.6.24.

Top of Page