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  • From: Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] NAPC: Scarcity?
  • Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 18:00:28 -0700

Toby, 

First, I wanted to clarify one detail. NAPC lodging is NOT camping only and
never has been. We offer motel contact info on our web site for those who
don't want to camp. Harmony Park also offers RV sites with full electric,
etc.We are well aware that some people can't camp or don't want to and that
has always been a part of the conversation from the beginning.  Here is the
actual information from our web site, which has been up for a while now. 
http://northamericanpermaculture.org/lodgingaccommodations/


I am totally with you Toby, regarding the importance of being more accessible
to mainstream people who understand that change is needed and presenting
permaculture in a way that enables them to see the power in the design
process. I am working toward that end myself and will continue to do so. 

I was not aware of the New Age connotations of the word "convergence" - it's
too bad that people get so fixed on word connotations but I understand that
this is sometimes the reality. I also do understand that some people do not
want to participate in ceremony, and I respect the diverse religious
backgrounds and beliefs of participants.  
I think that the situations you describe can be addressed with design -
without inhibiting people's desire to build community through circles, etc.
I've brought government officials to events and explained beforehand what to
expect to avoid the walk out phenomena, and have suggested that they come
after the "opening circle" ceremony if they prefer to skip that. When
inviting officials to such an event, I tend to tell them what presentations I
think they would be most interested in and they usually appreciate that. 

Because the NAPC is so new, and because per survey this is what most people
wanted, and because we are applying (to some degree) the principle "Start
slow and small", the focus of this convergence is internal. We have much to
discuss and work out internally. I also have envisioned, like you, future
gatherings that would include to allied groups, organizations and individuals
- I am very excited about the cross pollination potential that is already
happening in some areas. Networks are an incredibly powerful pattern and have
many uses and permutations.  

One thought, Toby - could it be that convergences are an internal function
and conferences are external? And the reason officials were invited to an
internal gathering was because there weren't any external facing events in
that area? A scarcity? I think it's vital that we differentiate the various
needs and functions that exist within the community, and not try to collapse
them all into a single event. We are talking about succession here to some
degree. We need multiple models to meet the growing diversity of needs in our
community.  Should we be free to internally define what we want to experience
in our gatherings, without outside people judging us? Will our gatherings
evolve as a wider diversity of people join the movement? Will new "tribes"
form as part of the succession process, to meet a widening diversity of
needs? Already, preppers are having their own permaculture type meetings with
their own flavor. 

Maybe there is something in between spiral dances/camping/drum circles, and
uber-expensive conferences in casinos - no? I would love to be a part of
creating a conference that would bring together permaculturists, officials,
and other forward thinkers and solution-oriented people to work out some
collaborative solutions. That activity is right up my alley - it is the type
of work I did before I got into permaculture, bringing together diverse
elements in coalitions around common interests. 

But wait, Bioneers does that already, right? And there are other already
existing models doing that; perhaps more of us should attend those functions
and be a part of them. 

What I'm getting from your comments (and correct me if I'm mistaken) is a
call to more closely define needs and resources of the growing diversity in
our networks as well as those outside of our networks who might become
interested in permaculture, and find ways to meet the needs with the
resources. It entails close observation of an evolving system, and
reassessment of some of the design elements. That doesn't mean there isn't a
place for those elements any longer - but there are new elements in the
system; how can we integrate for the greatest yield?  

Koreen Brennan


 



On Wednesday, August 6, 2014 4:51 PM, Scott Pittman <scott@permaculture.org>
wrote:



The IPC is an example of both of these models.  First there is a Conference
held at a very posh Hotel or Conference center where various pundits hold
forth on some aspect of the theme of the IPC.  In the lobbies there are
various permaculture displays offering seeds, books, technology, and other
items for sale. 

I usually find these "conferences" extremely boring with an occasional new
idea or technique that makes me think and offers the occasional aha moment.
The idea of the conference has been to interface with all strata of society
and to spread the word of permaculture to the unwashed.  I don't think this
has been accomplished in any significant way.  Certainly the conference in
Havana was mostly permaculture presenters singing to the choir.  The
conference in Jordan had one outstanding presenter who has done some amazing
work reforesting arid lands in Africa otherwise it was pretty bland and a
show case for Geoff Lawton and an embarrassing presentation by Bill
Mollison.

The convergence follows the Conference and this is a gathering of those who
are certified through the Permaculture Design Certification course.  This
was established to be an in house event that dealt with those things
specific to permaculture as an organization and design system.  It is also
an opportunity for interaction with old friends and companions from afar and
a chance for anyone who wants to do show and tell of their projects and any
break throughs or new technologies. 

While I always love seeing old friends most of the rest of it is as exciting
as a new type of herb spiral.  I could have better spent my money just going
to visit old friends without the pretence.

I say this not to dismiss the functions of either Conferences or
Convergences but to point out that so far I have only seen poorly organized
and unimaginative events that seemed more an excuse to party than to get
anything else done.  As I said before in this list I am a participant in
these events because I want to see us tighten up our game.  I don't think
that permaculture design has ever been applied to these events and it shows.
For the most part we are parodying models that have been designed by
corporations and professional organizations, and since we are neither we
don't do a very good job.

I have also attended those professional conferences outside of the
permaculture realm and also find them lacking in grabbing my imagination and
inspiring me to go out and do great things.  Mainly they seem to provide an
enormous list of presentations that make it impossible to partake of but a
few.

Personally I am happy this is a "convergence" because I would like to have a
serious conversation with my peers about how do we become more relevant in
the world.  I am operating out of the same urgency that Bill Mollison
conveyed when I studied with him some 30 years ago.  Thirty years have
passed and our numbers have increased geometrically, thanks in large part to
Bill's missionary zeal, but our influence has not grown proportional to our
numbers.  Time is running out and if not us who is going to provide real
solutions to the physical and social cataclysm we face. I don't see anyone
else out there who has the tools, ethics, energy, and will that would come
close to what permaculture has to offer.

I am happy to hear you say, Toby, that rather than mainstream permaculture,
you want to permaculture mainstream!  Good for you and I agree that is the
task. 

If we are going to continue having these large international, national,
regional gatherings then we certainly need to make them relevant to the task
at hand rather than a poor imitation of what "mainstream" provides.  There
is so much we need to talk about, decide and act on and my hope is that this
NAPC will provide an atmosphere that is conducive to these tasks.

Scott
Permaculture Institute


"To change something build a new model that makes the existing model
obsolete"  Buckminster Fuller


-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture [mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf
Of Toby Hemenway
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 3:07 PM
To: permaculture
Subject: Re: [permaculture] NAPC: Scarcity?

Koreen, etc--

Lots of good stuff here; thanks for all this. Mostly my comments have been
to encourage us to up our game; to sometimes bemore professional, to appeal
to a wider audience, and to tap into resources that permaculturists have
largely ignored, and I appreciate the other efforts to do this, too.
Wonderful that NAPC can be a stimulus for this and more.

Re the word "convergence." Most permaculture convergences I've attended have
been just as oriented toward lectures and talking heads as conferences,
while I've been to conferences that have been dynamic and interactive. I
think the distinction is primarily one of advertising and an attempt by
permaculturists to say that they are doing something different. A conference
is what you make it.

For most people, the connotations of "conference" are simply a group of
professionals coming together to share their work with each other, though
usually at some classy joint.

But "convergence" has strong connotations that are very class-specific. The
first convergence that I know of was the 1987 "Harmonic Convergence," a New
Age gathering based on an well-hyped astrological "convergence" of the
planets and a misinterpretation of the Mayan calendar (like 2012) in which,
if only enough people came together, the world would enter a new age of
peace. Only hippies and new-agers hold convergences. I have nothing against
hippies; I am one myself. But I would like permaculture to appeal to more
than hippies, and if we market ourselves using hippie, dated New Age
language, we won't do that. I run into pushback from professionals in many
fields on our language and presentation, over and over again.

At "La Convergence," a large permaculture gathering in Quebec that I just
attended, a group of the most influential people there (the site owners, who
are serious movers in the community and fiber-hemp farmers; an
internationally known artist who also pioneered virtual reality software;
one of Canada's best known environmentalists, and several others) all
disliked the word "convergence, and asked why not call it a conference,
because that's what it was. And these people love permaculture. Imagine how
others feel.

At a NW Pc Convergence a few years back, several high-ranking policymakers
from Portland attended, arriving in time for the opening ceremony. People
circled up, held hands, sang, did circle dances, and made an invocation to
the earth goddess. That was more than the officials could stand, and they
left before the main events began. Will they ever consider permaculture
seriously again?

So, if we want to reach anyone outside of those already in the
counterculture, we need to stop using exclusive language and practices that
are alienating to most of the population. Many of us are so used to speaking
our language that we don't know how off-putting and class-specific it is. To
attract people out of their usual mode, we need to actually be attractive.
I'm not interested in mainstreaming permaculture, but I do want to
permaculture the mainstream.

And that gets to Koreen's question about events that only offer camping as
lodging. Right there, we've just ruled out most of the population, and put a
burden on those who are flying to attend (tent, sleeping bag, pad, etc on a
plane? $50 bag fee right there) and on those who are older. At a conference,
I want to be at my best, and after 2 nights on hard ground, in a crowd of
tents with people talking till late, coughing and snoring, and waving
flashlights in the dark, I'm a wreck. I was fine with that 20 years ago, but
not now.

This is all fine for NAPC this time, because we're creating an event
primarily for insiders. But if we want to take advantage of permaculture's
potential to change all of society, we need to reach out to the vast
majority who don't think like us or use words like convergence and Gaia.

I think permaculture has done a fine job in serving the alternative
community and reaching out to low-income activists and farmers, but it's
been to the exclusion of serving the rest of society. I'd like to see us
develop a more professional component, more outreach, and more willingness
to meet outsiders where they are.

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com


On Aug 6, 2014, at 1:26 AM, Koreen Brennan via permaculture
<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:

> Toby and all,
>
> I totally agree that it is all solvable and it's all about design. Early
in the process we discussed the idea of taking longer to put this event on
so that we would have more time to implement a full design. We decided to go
forward because we felt that the value of having a convergence this year
outweighed the downside. We have engaged the design process, but we have
realized that because of the time frame, we would not be able to create an
optimum design. So the question then becomes what is most important - what
will get the most future yield? We are still getting what we feel are key
parts of a permaculture design for this event done.
>
> For the record, I feel that there are important distinctions between
convergences and conferences, and we need both of them. Conferences focus on
experts giving others information. They are often focused on a one-way flow
of communication. Sometimes there are decisions made or break out sessions
but usually not.
>
> Converging on a point (meaning a physical location), in order to
facilitate rich energy exchanges is an ancient practice that is quite
sustainable. Many indigenous people have done it at times of necessity. I am
currently working and living at Pine Ridge Lakota reservation - the tribal
traditions of tiospayes (small, extended family localized units) converging
for larger gatherings go back at some length. I just attended a national
level powwow and observed the patterns there.
>
> Convergences stack functions, creating opportunity for cross-pollination
amongst tribes in a number of ways - historically,this has included an
increased field for selection of mates, strategical alliances and
agreements, and the exchange of tools, horses, seeds, culture, etc. Tribes
might hunt together or do other things where economy of scale matters. I
don't think the concepts of convergence and conference should be collapsed
as they hold two very different functions. There are many elements of
permaculture design present in the convergence model. I'm so happy to hear
that Jono and others will be presenting info about the successes of the NE
convergences and guilds as there are many regions that can potentially
benefit from that information. A convergence can be many things to many
people and the regional convergences have been exploring that edge. It will
be interesting to get them together to compare notes!
>
> Some have voiced concerns that we aren't ready for a continental
convergence. My view is that things are marching forward in a number of
sectors on this planet, whether we are "ready" for them or not. Therefore,
we perhaps need to push ourselves harder and get ourselves ready, and a
continental convergence may be able to assist with that process. My hope is
that some of us at least will look outward, at the larger patterns in
society, and engage in thoughtful discussions about opportunities and
challenges, strengths and weaknesses.
>
> I would of course like to get paid for the work of organizing - it is part
of the third ethic of fair share.  The concept of receiving energy for
valuable energy contributed is part of a sustainable system. There are some
of us out there who will do the work whether we are paid or not when we
think the job is important enough. Whether that is the best possible way to
do things or not, we are filling niches that no one else has stepped up to
fill. I'm feeling that it will be worth it on many levels, but I do agree
that we need to tweak the finance model, not just in this one case but
overall.
>
> And there are a number of us interested in addressing this at the
convergence. Financial Permaculture is slated to be a working group there
and it may end up breaking off into more than one. It is a huge subject, and
there are many ways in which permaculture design can be applied more
thoroughly. I hear Scott's comments about invisible structure - it is my
reality that invisible structure is almost always the make-break point of
any design.
>
> I'm personally interested in many permutations of cooperative models and
looking forward to linking with others of like mind.  I think that financial
structures in our community that truly use the tools, principles and
elements of permaculture are much too few and far between (a scarcity that
can be remedied with abundances) and am  interested in hearing about and
supporting any that do. I agree that there is an abundance of money and we
should be better at tapping into it because we will use it more wisely than
many out there are doing.
>
> I've been talking to various bright lights in the movement about
prospective cooperative models and we are coming up with some creative ideas
that we feel meet everybody's needs. I'm very interested in connecting with
anyone who is serious about creating better models than those being
currently used in our movement. I think it would be good for all of us to
consider how we can help each other and collaborate more than we do, and I
feel that in order to make that happen, we need to create structures that
facilitate that.
>
> I am re-studying Donella Meadows' Thinking in Systems and am reminded that
structure and model can make huge differences in system outcomes. I
personally feel that the subject of economics of convergences and everything
else in permaculture goes much deeper than marketing ploys. I personally got
involved with this project in large part because I want to use intelligent
design to move to the next stage of succession, and I see how meeting
together in working groups, breakouts, etc, can assist that process. We are
continuing to design these sessions for maximum effectiveness and are very
interested in people's suggestions, thoughts and co-creation on that design
process.
>
> How can we bring the maximum amount of consciousness to the process of
converging? What does that mean, specifically at this time in our history
and in the succession process? What would that look like, at the
convergence? What can each of us bring to this gathering that will
contribute to that consciousness and to an enlightened succession process
that results in increased yields, abundance, ethics, and sanity? These are
questions I'm asking myself regularly as the time draws near.
>
> Best, Koreen
> www.growpermaculture.com
> www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 3:12 PM, Bob Waldrop <bob@bobwaldrop.net>
wrote:
>
>
>
> I agree this has been a valuable thread.
>
> In my preevious experience in the convention business, generally you
> develop your budget based on previous experience.  The absolute hardest
> and most knuckle biting conference to present is a new conference, one
> without an established record or constituency.  The knucklebiting is
> because people always wait until the last minute to book their
> attendance and every conference I was ever involved with sold a lot of
> tickets in the last two weeks.  Of course "the last two weeks" is
> useless or nearly so when it comes to program, because your program is
> generally arranged months in advance of the final two weeks before the
> event.
>
> I think crowd sourcing some seed money for the next event, or to fund
> the planning committee on an on-going basis, would be a great idea.
>
> I also think that establishing a permanent organizing group is a better
> idea than handing the convention off to new people in different regions
> each year.  In other words, I'm assuming there will be a conversation at
> the event about the NEXT event.  One of the options is for local
> committees throughout the country to bid for the convention, the other
> is to have a permanent planning committee, which possibly could work
> with local groups.  I'd vote for the permanent planning committee.
>
> Bob Waldrop, Okie City
>
>
> On 8/5/2014 1:50 PM, Toby Hemenway wrote:
>> I'm gaining a lot from this thread and appreciate everyone's
conscientious, thoughtful comments. Thomas brings up many good points, and I
also want to get to a few of Koreen's. I think we are getting to some
solutions here. A few responses:
>>
>> On Aug 4, 2014, at 11:27 PM, Thomas Allen <thallen@nwlink.com> wrote:
>>
>>>    Do we put on an event with volunteer labor at a very low price so
young entrants into permaculture can attend or do we put on the best event
possible.
>> Where I'm trying to go with this is: it is not either/or. It's possible
to put on excellent events with options that low-income people can afford,
>
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Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 18:21:55 -0700
From: Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: Koreen Brennan <koreen@growpermaculture.com>
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] NAPC: Scarcity?
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I want to clarify what I mean by external and internal facing events. There
is a history in permaculture, and tradition and ceremony that has evolved.
Those things meet needs of those who participate, but may not meet the needs
of some of the people who are getting into permaculture now. It's good to
acknowledge that, and I believe that is at least part of your point, is that
correct? I believe there are many gradients of presentation that can be made,
to meet various needs. 

We have the needs of existing communities to celebrate together, to evolve
together, and to offer mutual support. We have the needs of new
permaculturists - which are varied but usually involve learning more about
the subject. We have needs of people who are working in parallel movements
but with different approaches, and different cultural paradigms. We have
needs of people in different cultures across the planet, etc. What if we
tailor our events to meet specific needs, and not try to be all things to all
people in any one event? For instance, when we are trying to reach new
permaculturists, the focus can be on providing those things that they need
the most, and let's ask them what they feel that is. When trying to reach
officials, let's create an event tailored to what is most real to them
instead of trying to make our convergences fit their realities and needs
(this is something I'm good at and would be happy to collaborate on...).  
There are many
possible events that we could create. Let's look at existing resources and
energies (such as already existing and established events) that could be
worked with as well. Some of us are already doing this to varying degrees.
Let's be very clear about who our public is and what outcome we are seeking,
and how realistic that is. And we can realize that everything we are doing
will evolve, as the succession process continues. 

You are very good at finding a common language which many can relate to when
you describe permaculture design. That is an important gift. Not everyone can
or wants to do that - all of us have our niches. It's great to recognize and
honor those niches and their functions, and to design the system so that they
all can flourish. I don't think our views differ that much on these issues,
actually. :-)  Thank you for continuing to clarify your concerns, it has
helped me to clarify some things about the succession process in my mind. 
 
Koreen Brennan


 



On , Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com> wrote:



Toby, 

First, I wanted to clarify one detail. NAPC lodging is NOT camping only and
never has been. We offer motel contact info on our web site for those who
don't want to camp. Harmony Park also offers RV sites with full electric,
etc.We are well aware that some people can't camp or don't want to and that
has always been a part of the conversation from the beginning.  Here is the
actual information from our web site, which has been up for a while now. 
http://northamericanpermaculture.org/lodgingaccommodations/


I am totally with you Toby, regarding the importance of being more accessible
to mainstream people who understand that change is needed and presenting
permaculture in a way that enables them to see the power in the design
process. I am working toward that end myself and will continue to do so. 

I was not aware of the New Age connotations of the word "convergence" - it's
too bad that people get so fixed on word connotations but I understand that
this is sometimes the reality. I also do understand that some people do not
want to participate in ceremony, and I respect the diverse religious
backgrounds and beliefs of participants.  
I think that the situations you describe can be addressed with design -
without inhibiting people's desire to build community through circles, etc.
I've brought government officials to events and explained beforehand what to
expect to avoid the walk out phenomena, and have suggested that they come
after the "opening circle" ceremony if they prefer to skip that. When
inviting officials to such an event, I tend to tell them what presentations I
think they would be most interested in and they usually appreciate that. 

Because the NAPC is so new, and because per survey this is what most people
wanted, and because we are applying (to some degree) the principle "Start
slow and small", the focus of this convergence is internal. We have much to
discuss and work out internally. I also have envisioned, like you, future
gatherings that would include to allied groups, organizations and individuals
- I am very excited about the cross pollination potential that is already
happening in some areas. Networks are an incredibly powerful pattern and have
many uses and permutations.  

One thought, Toby - could it be that convergences are an internal function
and conferences are external? And the reason officials were invited to an
internal gathering was because there weren't any external facing events in
that area? A scarcity? I think it's vital that we differentiate the various
needs and functions that exist within the community, and not try to collapse
them all into a single event. We are talking about succession here to some
degree. We need multiple models to meet the growing diversity of needs in our
community.  Should we be free to internally define what we want to experience
in our gatherings, without outside people judging us? Will our gatherings
evolve as a wider diversity of people join the movement? Will new "tribes"
form as part of the succession process, to meet a widening diversity of
needs? Already, preppers are having their own permaculture type meetings with
their own flavor. 

Maybe there is something in between spiral dances/camping/drum circles, and
uber-expensive conferences in casinos - no? I would love to be a part of
creating a conference that would bring together permaculturists, officials,
and other forward thinkers and solution-oriented people to work out some
collaborative solutions. That activity is right up my alley - it is the type
of work I did before I got into permaculture, bringing together diverse
elements in coalitions around common interests. 

But wait, Bioneers does that already, right? And there are other already
existing models doing that; perhaps more of us should attend those functions
and be a part of them. 

What I'm getting from your comments (and correct me if I'm mistaken) is a
call to more closely define needs and resources of the growing diversity in
our networks as well as those outside of our networks who might become
interested in permaculture, and find ways to meet the needs with the
resources. It entails close observation of an evolving system, and
reassessment of some of the design elements. That doesn't mean there isn't a
place for those elements any longer - but there are new elements in the
system; how can we integrate for the greatest yield?  

Koreen Brennan


 



On Wednesday, August 6, 2014 4:51 PM, Scott Pittman <scott@permaculture.org>
wrote:



The IPC is an example of both of these models.  First there is a Conference
held at a very posh Hotel or Conference center where various pundits hold
forth on some aspect of the theme of the IPC.  In the lobbies there
are
various permaculture displays offering seeds, books, technology, and other
items for sale. 

I usually find these "conferences" extremely boring with an occasional new
idea or technique that makes me think and offers the occasional aha moment.
The idea of the conference has been to interface with all strata of society
and to spread the word of permaculture to the unwashed.  I don't think this
has been accomplished in any significant way.  Certainly the conference in
Havana was mostly permaculture presenters singing to the choir.  The
conference in Jordan had one outstanding presenter who has
done some amazing
work reforesting arid lands in Africa otherwise it was pretty bland and a
show case for Geoff Lawton and an embarrassing presentation by Bill
Mollison.

The convergence follows the Conference and this is a gathering of those who
are certified through the Permaculture Design Certification course.  This
was established to be an in house event that dealt with those things
specific to permaculture as an organization and design system.  It is also
an opportunity for interaction with old friends and companions from afar and
a chance for anyone who wants to do show and tell of their projects and
any
break throughs or new technologies. 

While I always love seeing old friends most of the rest of it is as exciting
as a new type of herb spiral.  I could have better spent my money just going
to visit old friends without the pretence.

I say this not to dismiss the functions of either Conferences or
Convergences but to point out that so far I have only seen poorly organized
and unimaginative events that seemed more an excuse to party than to get
anything else done.  As I said before in this list I am a participant in
these events because I want to see us tighten up
our game.  I don't think
that permaculture design has ever been applied to these events and it shows.
For the most part we are parodying models that have been designed by
corporations and professional organizations, and since we are neither we
don't do a very good job.

I have also attended those professional conferences outside of the
permaculture realm and also find them lacking in grabbing my imagination and
inspiring me to go out and do great things.  Mainly they seem to provide an
enormous list of presentations that make it impossible to partake of but a
few.

Personally I am happy this is a "convergence" because I would like to have a
serious conversation with my peers about how do we become more relevant in
the world.  I am operating out of the same urgency that Bill Mollison
conveyed when I studied with him some 30 years ago.  Thirty years have
passed and our numbers have increased geometrically, thanks in large part to
Bill's missionary zeal, but our influence has not grown proportional to our
numbers.  Time is running out and if not us who is going to provide real
solutions to the physical and social cataclysm we face. I don't see anyone
else out there who has the tools, ethics, energy, and
will that would come
close to what permaculture has to offer.

I am happy to hear you say, Toby, that rather than mainstream permaculture,
you want to permaculture mainstream!  Good for you and I agree that is the
task. 

If we are going to continue having these large international, national,
regional gatherings then we certainly need to make them relevant to the task
at hand rather than a poor imitation of what "mainstream" provides.  There
is so much we need to talk about, decide and act on and my hope is that this
NAPC will provide an atmosphere that is conducive to
these tasks.

Scott
Permaculture Institute


"To change something build a new model that makes the existing model
obsolete"  Buckminster Fuller


-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture [mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf
Of Toby Hemenway
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 3:07 PM
To: permaculture
Subject: Re: [permaculture] NAPC: Scarcity?

Koreen, etc--

Lots of good stuff here; thanks for all this. Mostly my comments have been
to encourage us to up our game; to sometimes bemore professional, to appeal
to a wider audience, and to tap into resources that permaculturists have
largely ignored, and I appreciate the other efforts to do this, too.
Wonderful that NAPC can be a stimulus for this and more.

Re the word "convergence." Most permaculture convergences I've attended have
been just as oriented toward lectures and talking heads as conferences,
while I've been to conferences that have been dynamic and interactive. I
think the distinction is primarily one of advertising and an attempt by
permaculturists to say that they are doing something different. A conference
is what you make it.

For most people, the connotations of "conference" are simply a group of
professionals coming together to share their work with each other, though
usually at some classy joint.

But "convergence" has strong connotations that are very class-specific. The
first convergence that I know of was the 1987 "Harmonic Convergence," a New
Age gathering based on an well-hyped astrological "convergence" of the
planets and a misinterpretation of the Mayan calendar (like 2012) in which,
if only enough people came together, the world would enter a new age of
peace. Only hippies and new-agers hold convergences. I have nothing against
hippies; I am one myself. But I would like permaculture to appeal to more
than hippies, and if we market ourselves using hippie, dated New Age
language, we won't do that. I run into pushback from professionals in many
fields on our language and presentation, over and over again.

At "La Convergence," a large permaculture gathering in Quebec that
I just
attended, a group of the most influential people there (the site owners, who
are serious movers in the community and fiber-hemp farmers; an
internationally known artist who also pioneered virtual reality software;
one of Canada's best known environmentalists, and several others) all
disliked the word "convergence, and asked why not call it a conference,
because that's what it was. And these people love permaculture. Imagine how
others feel.

At a NW Pc Convergence a few years back, several high-ranking policymakers
from Portland attended, arriving in time for the opening ceremony. People
circled up, held hands, sang, did circle dances, and made an invocation to
the earth goddess. That was more than the officials could stand, and they
left before the main events began. Will they ever consider permaculture
seriously again?

So, if we want to reach anyone outside of those already in the
counterculture, we need to stop using exclusive language and practices that
are alienating to most of the population. Many of us are so used to speaking
our language that we don't know how off-putting and class-specific it is. To
attract people out of their usual mode, we need to actually be attractive.
I'm not
interested in mainstreaming permaculture, but I do want to
permaculture the mainstream.

And that gets to Koreen's question about events that only offer camping as
lodging. Right there, we've just ruled out most of the population, and put a
burden on those who are flying to attend (tent, sleeping bag, pad, etc on a
plane? $50 bag fee right there) and on those who are older. At a conference,
I want to be at my best, and after 2 nights on hard ground, in a crowd of
tents with people talking till late, coughing and snoring, and waving
flashlights in the dark, I'm a wreck. I was fine with that 20 years ago, but
not now.

This is all fine for NAPC this time, because we're creating an event
primarily for insiders. But if we want to take advantage of permaculture's
potential to change all of society, we need to reach out to the vast
majority who don't think like us or use words like convergence and Gaia.

I think permaculture has done a fine job in serving the alternative
community and reaching out to low-income activists and farmers, but it's
been to the exclusion of serving the rest of society. I'd like to see us
develop a more professional component, more outreach, and more willingness
to meet outsiders
where they are.

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com


On Aug 6, 2014, at 1:26 AM, Koreen Brennan via permaculture
<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:

> Toby and all,
>
> I totally agree that it is all solvable and it's all about design. Early
in the process we discussed the idea of taking longer to put this event on
so that we would have more time to implement a full design. We decided to go
forward because we felt that the value of having a convergence this year
outweighed the downside. We have engaged the design process, but we have
realized that because of the time frame, we would not be able to create an
optimum design. So the question then becomes what is most important - what
will get the most future yield? We are still getting what we feel are key
parts of a permaculture design for this event done.
>
> For the record, I feel that there are important distinctions between
convergences and conferences, and we need both of
them. Conferences focus on
experts giving others information. They are often focused on a one-way flow
of communication. Sometimes there are decisions made or break out sessions
but usually not.
>
> Converging on a point (meaning a physical location), in order to
facilitate rich energy exchanges is an ancient practice that is quite
sustainable. Many indigenous people have done it at times of necessity. I am
currently working and living at Pine Ridge Lakota reservation - the tribal
traditions of tiospayes (small, extended family localized units) converging
for larger gatherings go back at some length. I just
attended a national
level powwow and observed the patterns there.
>
> Convergences stack functions, creating opportunity for cross-pollination
amongst tribes in a number of ways - historically,this has included an
increased field for selection of mates, strategical alliances and
agreements, and the exchange of tools, horses, seeds, culture, etc. Tribes
might hunt together or do other things where economy of scale matters. I
don't think the concepts of convergence and conference should be collapsed
as they hold two very different functions. There are many elements of
permaculture design present in the convergence
model. I'm so happy to hear
that Jono and others will be presenting info about the successes of the NE
convergences and guilds as there are many regions that can potentially
benefit from that information. A convergence can be many things to many
people and the regional convergences have been exploring that edge. It will
be interesting to get them together to compare notes!
>
> Some have voiced concerns that we aren't ready for a continental
convergence. My view is that things are marching forward in a number of
sectors on this planet, whether we are "ready" for them or not. Therefore,
we perhaps need to push
ourselves harder and get ourselves ready, and a
continental convergence may be able to assist with that process. My hope is
that some of us at least will look outward, at the larger patterns in
society, and engage in thoughtful discussions about opportunities and
challenges, strengths and weaknesses.
>
> I would of course like to get paid for the work of organizing - it is part
of the third ethic of fair share.  The concept of receiving energy for
valuable energy contributed is part of a sustainable system. There are some
of us out there who will do the work whether we are paid or not when we
think the job
is important enough. Whether that is the best possible way to
do things or not, we are filling niches that no one else has stepped up to
fill. I'm feeling that it will be worth it on many levels, but I do agree
that we need to tweak the finance model, not just in this one case but
overall.
>
> And there are a number of us interested in addressing this at the
convergence. Financial Permaculture is slated to be a working group there
and it may end up breaking off into more than one. It is a huge subject, and
there are many ways in which permaculture design can be applied more
thoroughly. I hear Scott's comments
about invisible structure - it is my
reality that invisible structure is almost always the make-break point of
any design.
>
> I'm personally interested in many permutations of cooperative models and
looking forward to linking with others of like mind.  I think that financial
structures in our community that truly use the tools, principles and
elements of permaculture are much too few and far between (a scarcity that
can be remedied with abundances) and am  interested in hearing about and
supporting any that do. I agree that there is an abundance of money and we
should be better at tapping into it
because we will use it more wisely than
many out there are doing.
>
> I've been talking to various bright lights in the movement about
prospective cooperative models and we are coming up with some creative ideas
that we feel meet everybody's needs. I'm very interested in connecting with
anyone who is serious about creating better models than those being
currently used in our movement. I think it would be good for all of us to
consider how we can help each other and collaborate more than we do, and I
feel that in order to make that happen, we need to create structures that
facilitate that.
>
> I am re-studying Donella Meadows' Thinking in Systems and am reminded that
structure and model can make huge differences in system outcomes. I
personally feel that the subject of economics of convergences and everything
else in permaculture goes much deeper than marketing ploys. I personally got
involved with this project in large part because I want to use intelligent
design to move to the next stage of succession, and I see how meeting
together in working groups, breakouts, etc, can assist that process. We are
continuing to design these sessions for maximum effectiveness and are very
interested in people's suggestions,
thoughts and co-creation on that design
process.
>
> How can we bring the maximum amount of consciousness to the process of
converging? What does that mean, specifically at this time in our history
and in the succession process? What would that look like, at the
convergence? What can each of us bring to this gathering that will
contribute to that consciousness and to an enlightened succession process
that results in increased yields, abundance, ethics, and sanity? These are
questions I'm asking myself regularly as the time draws near.
>
> Best, Koreen
> www.growpermaculture.com
> www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 3:12 PM, Bob Waldrop <bob@bobwaldrop.net>
wrote:
>
>
>
> I agree this has been a valuable thread.
>
> In my preevious experience in the convention business, generally you
> develop your budget based on previous experience.  The absolute
hardest
> and most knuckle biting conference to present is a new conference, one
> without an established record or constituency.  The knucklebiting is
> because people always wait until the last minute to book their
> attendance and every conference I was ever involved with sold a lot of
> tickets in the last two weeks.  Of course "the last two weeks" is
> useless or nearly so when it comes to program, because your program is
> generally arranged months in advance of the final two weeks before the
> event.
>
> I think crowd sourcing some seed money for the next event, or
to fund
> the planning committee on an on-going basis, would be a great idea.
>
> I also think that establishing a permanent organizing group is a better
> idea than handing the convention off to new people in different regions
> each year.  In other words, I'm assuming there will be a conversation at
> the event about the NEXT event.  One of the options is for local
> committees throughout the country to bid for the convention, the other
> is to have a permanent planning committee, which possibly could work
> with local groups.  I'd vote for the permanent planning committee.
>
> Bob Waldrop, Okie City
>
>
> On 8/5/2014 1:50 PM, Toby Hemenway wrote:
>> I'm gaining a lot from this thread and appreciate everyone's
conscientious, thoughtful comments. Thomas brings up many good points, and I
also want to get to a few of Koreen's. I think we are getting to some
solutions here. A few responses:
>>
>> On Aug 4, 2014, at 11:27 PM, Thomas Allen <thallen@nwlink.com> wrote:
>>
>>>    Do we put on an event with volunteer labor at a very low price so
young entrants into permaculture can attend or do we put on the best event
possible.
>> Where I'm trying to go with this is: it is not either/or. It's possible
to put on excellent events with options that low-income people can afford,
>
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Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 18:35:44 -0700
From: Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
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Thanks for your clarification Scott, on the conference vs convergence at IPC.
We are intending too that this convergence will have more of the elements
that you mention and remain open to feedback and design input on making that
happen! 

There was some attempt by another group to create a professional conference
(which would have been more of what you are describing, Toby?), before this
convergence. That need was and is perceived. The time line was too tight to
pull off properly.  Next time! I'm looking forward to what will be produced
at the next IPC, and also at how the regional convergences will continue to
evolve.  
 
Koreen Brennan
http://growpermaculture.com
http://northamericanpermaculture.org



On Wednesday, August 6, 2014 7:22 PM, Koreen Brennan via permaculture
<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:



I want to clarify what I mean by external and internal facing events. There
is a history in permaculture, and tradition and ceremony that has evolved.
Those things meet needs of those who participate, but may not meet the needs
of some of the people who are getting into permaculture now. It's good to
acknowledge that, and I believe that is at least part of your point, is that
correct? I believe there are many gradients of presentation that can be made,
to meet various needs. 

We have the needs of existing communities to celebrate together, to evolve
together, and to offer mutual support. We have the needs of new
permaculturists - which are varied but usually involve learning more about
the subject. We have needs of people who are working in parallel movements
but with different approaches, and different cultural paradigms. We have
needs of people in different cultures across the planet, etc. What if we
tailor our events to meet specific needs, and not try to be all things to all
people in any one event? For instance, when we are trying to reach new
permaculturists, the focus can be on providing those things that they need
the most, and let's ask them what they feel that is. When trying to reach
officials, let's create an event tailored to what is most real to them
instead of trying to make our convergences fit their realities and needs
(this is something I'm good at and would be happy to collaborate on...).  
There are many
possible events that we could create. Let's look at existing resources and
energies (such as already existing and established events) that could be
worked with as well. Some of us are already doing this to varying degrees.
Let's be very clear about who our public is and what outcome we are seeking,
and how realistic that is. And we can realize that everything we are doing
will evolve, as the succession process continues. 

You are very good at finding a common language which many can relate to when
you describe permaculture design. That is an important gift. Not everyone can
or wants to do that - all of us have our niches. It's great to recognize and
honor those niches and their functions, and to design the system so that they
all can flourish. I don't think our views differ that much on these issues,
actually. :-)  Thank you for continuing to clarify your concerns, it has
helped me to clarify some things about the succession process in my mind. 
 
Koreen Brennan


 




On , Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com> wrote:



Toby, 

First, I wanted to clarify one detail. NAPC lodging is NOT camping only and
never has been. We offer motel contact info on our web site for those who
don't want to camp. Harmony Park also offers RV sites with full electric,
etc.We are well aware that some people can't camp or don't want to and that
has always been a part of the conversation from the beginning.  Here is the
actual information from our web site, which has been up for a while now. 
http://northamericanpermaculture.org/lodgingaccommodations/


I am totally with you Toby, regarding the importance of being more accessible
to mainstream people who understand that change is needed and presenting
permaculture in a way that enables them to see the power in the design
process. I am working toward that end myself and will continue to do so. 

I was not aware of the New Age connotations of the word "convergence" - it's
too bad that people get so fixed on word connotations but I understand that
this is sometimes the reality. I also do understand that some people do not
want to participate in ceremony, and I respect the diverse religious
backgrounds and beliefs of participants.  
I think that the situations you describe can be addressed with design -
without inhibiting people's desire to build community through circles, etc.
I've brought government officials to events and explained beforehand what to
expect to avoid the walk out phenomena, and have suggested that they come
after the "opening circle" ceremony if they prefer to skip that. When
inviting officials to such an event, I tend to tell them what presentations I
think they would be most interested in and they usually appreciate that. 

Because the NAPC is so new, and because per survey this is what most people
wanted, and because we are applying (to some degree) the principle "Start
slow and small", the focus of this convergence is internal. We have much to
discuss and work out internally. I also have envisioned, like you, future
gatherings that would include to allied groups, organizations and individuals
- I am very excited about the cross pollination potential that is already
happening in some areas. Networks are an incredibly powerful pattern and have
many uses and permutations.  

One thought, Toby - could it be that convergences are an internal function
and conferences are external? And the reason officials were invited to an
internal gathering was because there weren't any external facing events in
that area? A scarcity? I think it's vital that we differentiate the various
needs and functions that exist within the community, and not try to collapse
them all into a single event. We are talking about succession here to some
degree. We need multiple models to meet the growing diversity of needs in our
community.  Should we be free to internally define what we want to experience
in our gatherings, without outside people judging us? Will our gatherings
evolve as a wider diversity of people join the movement? Will new "tribes"
form as part of the succession process, to meet a widening diversity of
needs? Already, preppers are having their own permaculture type meetings with
their own flavor. 

Maybe there is something in between spiral dances/camping/drum circles, and
uber-expensive conferences in casinos - no? I would love to be a part of
creating a conference that would bring together permaculturists, officials,
and other forward thinkers and solution-oriented people to work out some
collaborative solutions. That activity is right up my alley - it is the type
of work I did before I got into permaculture, bringing together diverse
elements in coalitions around common interests. 

But wait, Bioneers does that already, right? And there are other already
existing models doing that; perhaps more of us should attend those functions
and be a part of them. 

What I'm getting from your comments (and correct me if I'm mistaken) is a
call to more closely define needs and resources of the growing diversity in
our networks as well as those outside of our networks who might become
interested in permaculture, and find ways to meet the needs with the
resources. It entails close observation of an evolving system, and
reassessment of some of the design elements. That doesn't mean there isn't a
place for those elements any longer - but there are new elements in the
system; how can we integrate for the greatest yield?  

Koreen Brennan


 



On Wednesday, August 6, 2014 4:51 PM, Scott Pittman <scott@permaculture.org>
wrote:



The IPC is an example of both of these models.  First there is a Conference
held at a very posh Hotel or Conference center where various pundits hold
forth on some aspect of the theme of the IPC.  In the lobbies there
are
various permaculture displays offering seeds, books, technology, and other
items for sale. 

I usually find these "conferences" extremely boring with an occasional new
idea or technique that makes me think and offers the occasional aha moment.
The idea of the conference has been to interface with all strata of society
and to spread the word of permaculture to the unwashed.  I don't think this
has been accomplished in any significant way.  Certainly the conference in
Havana was mostly permaculture presenters singing to the choir.  The
conference in Jordan had one outstanding presenter who has
done some amazing
work reforesting arid lands in Africa otherwise it was pretty bland and a
show case for Geoff Lawton and an embarrassing presentation by Bill
Mollison.

The convergence follows the Conference and this is a gathering of those who
are certified through the Permaculture Design Certification course.  This
was established to be an in house event that dealt with those things
specific to permaculture as an organization and design system.  It is also
an opportunity for interaction with old friends and companions from afar and
a chance for anyone who wants to do show and tell of their projects and
any
break throughs or new technologies. 

While I always love seeing old friends most of the rest of it is as exciting
as a new type of herb spiral.  I could have better spent my money just going
to visit old friends without the pretence.

I say this not to dismiss the functions of either Conferences or
Convergences but to point out that so far I have only seen poorly organized
and unimaginative events that seemed more an excuse to party than to get
anything else done.  As I said before in this list I am a participant in
these events because I want to see us tighten up
our game.  I don't think
that permaculture design has ever been applied to these events and it shows.
For the most part we are parodying models that have been designed by
corporations and professional organizations, and since we are neither we
don't do a very good job.

I have also attended those professional conferences outside of the
permaculture realm and also find them lacking in grabbing my imagination and
inspiring me to go out and do great things.  Mainly they seem to provide an
enormous list of presentations that make it impossible to partake of but a
few.

Personally I am happy this is a "convergence" because I would like to have a
serious conversation with my peers about how do we become more relevant in
the world.  I am operating out of the same urgency that Bill Mollison
conveyed when I studied with him some 30 years ago.  Thirty years have
passed and our numbers have increased geometrically, thanks in large part to
Bill's missionary zeal, but our influence has not grown proportional to our
numbers.  Time is running out and if not us who is going to provide real
solutions to the physical and social cataclysm we face. I don't see anyone
else out there who has the tools, ethics, energy, and
will that would come
close to what permaculture has to offer.

I am happy to hear you say, Toby, that rather than mainstream permaculture,
you want to permaculture mainstream!  Good for you and I agree that is the
task. 

If we are going to continue having these large international, national,
regional gatherings then we certainly need to make them relevant to the task
at hand rather than a poor imitation of what "mainstream" provides.  There
is so much we need to talk about, decide and act on and my hope is that this
NAPC will provide an atmosphere that is conducive to
these tasks.

Scott
Permaculture Institute


"To change something build a new model that makes the existing model
obsolete"  Buckminster Fuller


-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture [mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf
Of Toby Hemenway
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 3:07 PM
To: permaculture
Subject: Re: [permaculture] NAPC: Scarcity?

Koreen, etc--

Lots of good stuff here; thanks for all this. Mostly my comments have been
to encourage us to up our game; to sometimes bemore professional, to appeal
to a wider audience, and to tap into resources that permaculturists have
largely ignored, and I appreciate the other efforts to do this, too.
Wonderful that NAPC can be a stimulus for this and more.

Re the word "convergence." Most permaculture convergences I've attended have
been just as oriented toward lectures and talking heads as conferences,
while I've been to conferences that have been dynamic and interactive. I
think the distinction is primarily one of advertising and an attempt by
permaculturists to say that they are doing something different. A conference
is what you make it.

For most people, the connotations of "conference" are simply a group of
professionals coming together to share their work with each other, though
usually at some classy joint.

But "convergence" has strong connotations that are very class-specific. The
first convergence that I know of was the 1987 "Harmonic Convergence," a New
Age gathering based on an well-hyped astrological "convergence" of the
planets and a misinterpretation of the Mayan calendar (like 2012) in which,
if only enough people came together, the world would enter a new age of
peace. Only hippies and new-agers hold convergences. I have nothing against
hippies; I am one myself. But I would like permaculture to appeal to more
than hippies, and if we market ourselves using hippie, dated New Age
language, we won't do that. I run into pushback from professionals in many
fields on our language and presentation, over and over again.

At "La Convergence," a large permaculture gathering in Quebec that
I just
attended, a group of the most influential people there (the site owners, who
are serious movers in the community and fiber-hemp farmers; an
internationally known artist who also pioneered virtual reality software;
one of Canada's best known environmentalists, and several others) all
disliked the word "convergence, and asked why not call it a conference,
because that's what it was. And these people love permaculture. Imagine how
others feel.

At a NW Pc Convergence a few years back, several high-ranking policymakers
from Portland attended, arriving in time for the opening ceremony. People
circled up, held hands, sang, did circle dances, and made an invocation to
the earth goddess. That was more than the officials could stand, and they
left before the main events began. Will they ever consider permaculture
seriously again?

So, if we want to reach anyone outside of those already in the
counterculture, we need to stop using exclusive language and practices that
are alienating to most of the population. Many of us are so used to speaking
our language that we don't know how off-putting and class-specific it is. To
attract people out of their usual mode, we need to actually be attractive.
I'm not
interested in mainstreaming permaculture, but I do want to
permaculture the mainstream.

And that gets to Koreen's question about events that only offer camping as
lodging. Right there, we've just ruled out most of the population, and put a
burden on those who are flying to attend (tent, sleeping bag, pad, etc on a
plane? $50 bag fee right there) and on those who are older. At a conference,
I want to be at my best, and after 2 nights on hard ground, in a crowd of
tents with people talking till late, coughing and snoring, and waving
flashlights in the dark, I'm a wreck. I was fine with that 20 years ago, but
not now.

This is all fine for NAPC this time, because we're creating an event
primarily for insiders. But if we want to take advantage of permaculture's
potential to change all of society, we need to reach out to the vast
majority who don't think like us or use words like convergence and Gaia.

I think permaculture has done a fine job in serving the alternative
community and reaching out to low-income activists and farmers, but it's
been to the exclusion of serving the rest of society. I'd like to see us
develop a more professional component, more outreach, and more willingness
to meet outsiders
where they are.

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com


On Aug 6, 2014, at 1:26 AM, Koreen Brennan via permaculture
<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:

> Toby and all,
>
> I totally agree that it is all solvable and it's all about design. Early
in the process we discussed the idea of taking longer to put this event on
so that we would have more time to implement a full design. We decided to go
forward because we felt that the value of having a convergence this year
outweighed the downside. We have engaged the design process, but we have
realized that because of the time frame, we would not be able to create an
optimum design. So the question then becomes what is most important - what
will get the most future yield? We are still getting what we feel are key
parts of a permaculture design for this event done.
>
> For the record, I feel that there are important distinctions between
convergences and conferences, and we need both of
them. Conferences focus on
experts giving others information. They are often focused on a one-way flow
of communication. Sometimes there are decisions made or break out sessions
but usually not.
>
> Converging on a point (meaning a physical location), in order to
facilitate rich energy exchanges is an ancient practice that is quite
sustainable. Many indigenous people have done it at times of necessity. I am
currently working and living at Pine Ridge Lakota reservation - the tribal
traditions of tiospayes (small, extended family localized units) converging
for larger gatherings go back at some length. I just
attended a national
level powwow and observed the patterns there.
>
> Convergences stack functions, creating opportunity for cross-pollination
amongst tribes in a number of ways - historically,this has included an
increased field for selection of mates, strategical alliances and
agreements, and the exchange of tools, horses, seeds, culture, etc. Tribes
might hunt together or do other things where economy of scale matters. I
don't think the concepts of convergence and conference should be collapsed
as they hold two very different functions. There are many elements of
permaculture design present in the convergence
model. I'm so happy to hear
that Jono and others will be presenting info about the successes of the NE
convergences and guilds as there are many regions that can potentially
benefit from that information. A convergence can be many things to many
people and the regional convergences have been exploring that edge. It will
be interesting to get them together to compare notes!
>
> Some have voiced concerns that we aren't ready for a continental
convergence. My view is that things are marching forward in a number of
sectors on this planet, whether we are "ready" for them or not. Therefore,
we perhaps need to push
ourselves harder and get ourselves ready, and a
continental convergence may be able to assist with that process. My hope is
that some of us at least will look outward, at the larger patterns in
society, and engage in thoughtful discussions about opportunities and
challenges, strengths and weaknesses.
>
> I would of course like to get paid for the work of organizing - it is part
of the third ethic of fair share.  The concept of receiving energy for
valuable energy contributed is part of a sustainable system. There are some
of us out there who will do the work whether we are paid or not when we
think the job
is important enough. Whether that is the best possible way to
do things or not, we are filling niches that no one else has stepped up to
fill. I'm feeling that it will be worth it on many levels, but I do agree
that we need to tweak the finance model, not just in this one case but
overall.
>
> And there are a number of us interested in addressing this at the
convergence. Financial Permaculture is slated to be a working group there
and it may end up breaking off into more than one. It is a huge subject, and
there are many ways in which permaculture design can be applied more
thoroughly. I hear Scott's comments
about invisible structure - it is my
reality that invisible structure is almost always the make-break point of
any design.
>
> I'm personally interested in many permutations of cooperative models and
looking forward to linking with others of like mind.  I think that financial
structures in our community that truly use the tools, principles and
elements of permaculture are much too few and far between (a scarcity that
can be remedied with abundances) and am  interested in hearing about and
supporting any that do. I agree that there is an abundance of money and we
should be better at tapping into it
because we will use it more wisely than
many out there are doing.
>
> I've been talking to various bright lights in the movement about
prospective cooperative models and we are coming up with some creative ideas
that we feel meet everybody's needs. I'm very interested in connecting with
anyone who is serious about creating better models than those being
currently used in our movement. I think it would be good for all of us to
consider how we can help each other and collaborate more than we do, and I
feel that in order to make that happen, we need to create structures that
facilitate that.
>
> I am re-studying Donella Meadows' Thinking in Systems and am reminded that
structure and model can make huge differences in system outcomes. I
personally feel that the subject of economics of convergences and everything
else in permaculture goes much deeper than marketing ploys. I personally got
involved with this project in large part because I want to use intelligent
design to move to the next stage of succession, and I see how meeting
together in working groups, breakouts, etc, can assist that process. We are
continuing to design these sessions for maximum effectiveness and are very
interested in people's suggestions,
thoughts and co-creation on that design
process.
>
> How can we bring the maximum amount of consciousness to the process of
converging? What does that mean, specifically at this time in our history
and in the succession process? What would that look like, at the
convergence? What can each of us bring to this gathering that will
contribute to that consciousness and to an enlightened succession process
that results in increased yields, abundance, ethics, and sanity? These are
questions I'm asking myself regularly as the time draws near.
>
> Best, Koreen
> www.growpermaculture.com
> www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 3:12 PM, Bob Waldrop <bob@bobwaldrop.net>
wrote:
>
>
>
> I agree this has been a valuable thread.
>
> In my preevious experience in the convention business, generally you
> develop your budget based on previous experience.  The absolute
hardest
> and most knuckle biting conference to present is a new conference, one
> without an established record or constituency.  The knucklebiting is
> because people always wait until the last minute to book their
> attendance and every conference I was ever involved with sold a lot of
> tickets in the last two weeks.  Of course "the last two weeks" is
> useless or nearly so when it comes to program, because your program is
> generally arranged months in advance of the final two weeks before the
> event.
>
> I think crowd sourcing some seed money for the next event, or
to fund
> the planning committee on an on-going basis, would be a great idea.
>
> I also think that establishing a permanent organizing group is a better
> idea than handing the convention off to new people in different regions
> each year.  In other words, I'm assuming there will be a conversation at
> the event about the NEXT event.  One of the options is for local
> committees throughout the country to bid for the convention, the other
> is to have a permanent planning committee, which possibly could work
> with local groups.  I'd vote for the permanent planning committee.
>
> Bob Waldrop, Okie City
>
>
> On 8/5/2014 1:50 PM, Toby Hemenway wrote:
>> I'm gaining a lot from this thread and appreciate everyone's
conscientious, thoughtful comments. Thomas brings up many good points, and I
also want to get to a few of Koreen's. I think we are getting to some
solutions here. A few responses:
>>
>> On Aug 4, 2014, at 11:27 PM, Thomas Allen <thallen@nwlink.com> wrote:
>>
>>>    Do we put on an event with volunteer labor at a very low price so
young entrants into permaculture can attend or do we put on the best event
possible.
>> Where I'm trying to go with this is: it is not either/or. It's possible
to put on excellent events with options that low-income people can afford,
>
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Hello Bob,
 
Thanks for the comments on planning future NAPCs.  At NAPC I on Sunday there
will be a
roundtable on planning the next NAPC from 2:00 to 3:30 pm time period where
we can start the process. 
 
As in the tradition of the International Permaculture Convergence
there will be a mechanism for people/regions who want to host NAPC II to put
forth their proposals at NAPC I. Ideally it is from a regional PC
organization. For instance one of the regional guilds or convergences. 
Anyone who would like to host NAPC II in
their area is invited to bring their proposal to the table.  Who knows, we
might even make the decision
before the end of NAPC I. 
 
The idea of a permanent planning committee is a good one and
perhaps this would work with the regional host.  This way there are local
organizers as well as a larger geographic
council. 
 
Bring your ideas to NAPC!  See you there.
 
Michael Pilarski
 
PS.  Thank you Koreen for expressing so eloquently what we are trying to do
with this first North American Permaculture Convergence. 



On Wednesday, August 6, 2014 7:36 PM, Koreen Brennan via permaculture
<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:



Thanks for your clarification Scott, on the conference vs convergence at IPC.
We are intending too that this convergence will have more of the elements
that you mention and remain open to feedback and design input on making that
happen! 

There was some attempt by another group to create a professional conference
(which would have been more of what you are describing, Toby?), before this
convergence. That need was and is perceived. The time line was too tight to
pull off properly.  Next time! I'm looking forward to what will be produced
at the next IPC, and also at how the regional convergences will continue to
evolve.  
 
Koreen Brennan
http://growpermaculture.com
http://northamericanpermaculture.org



On Wednesday, August 6, 2014 7:22 PM, Koreen Brennan via permaculture
<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:



I want to clarify what I mean by external and internal facing events. There
is a history in permaculture, and tradition and ceremony that has evolved.
Those things meet needs of those who participate, but may not meet the needs
of some of the people who are getting into permaculture now. It's good to
acknowledge that, and I believe that is at least part of your point, is that
correct? I believe there are many gradients of presentation that can be made,
to meet various needs. 

We have the needs of existing communities to celebrate together, to evolve
together, and to offer mutual support. We have the needs of new
permaculturists - which are varied but usually involve learning more about
the subject. We have needs of people who are working in parallel movements
but with different approaches, and different cultural paradigms. We have
needs of people in different cultures across the planet, etc. What if we
tailor our events to meet specific needs, and not try to be all things to all
people in any one event? For instance, when we are trying to reach new
permaculturists, the focus can be on providing those things that they need
the most, and let's ask them what they feel that is. When trying to reach
officials, let's create an event tailored to what is most real to them
instead of trying to make our convergences fit their realities and needs
(this is something I'm good at and would be happy to collaborate on...).  
There are many
possible events that we could create. Let's look at existing resources and
energies (such as already existing and established events) that could be
worked with as well. Some of us are already doing this to varying degrees.
Let's be very clear about who our public is and what outcome we are seeking,
and how realistic that is. And we can realize that everything we are doing
will evolve, as the succession process continues. 

You are very good at finding a common language which many can relate to when
you describe permaculture design. That is an important gift. Not everyone can
or wants to do that - all of us have our niches. It's great to recognize and
honor those niches and their functions, and to design the system so that they
all can flourish. I don't think our views differ that much on these issues,
actually. :-)  Thank you for continuing to clarify your concerns, it has
helped me to clarify some things about the succession process in my mind. 
 
Koreen Brennan


 




On , Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com> wrote:



Toby, 

First, I wanted to clarify one detail. NAPC lodging is NOT camping only and
never has been. We offer motel contact info on our web site for those who
don't want to camp. Harmony Park also offers RV sites with full electric,
etc.We are well aware that some people can't camp or don't want to and that
has always been a part of the conversation from the beginning.  Here is the
actual information from our web site, which has been up for a while now. 
http://northamericanpermaculture.org/lodgingaccommodations/


I am totally with you Toby, regarding the importance of being more accessible
to mainstream people who understand that change is needed and presenting
permaculture in a way that enables them to see the power in the design
process. I am working toward that end myself and will continue to do so. 

I was not aware of the New Age connotations of the word "convergence" - it's
too bad that people get so fixed on word connotations but I understand that
this is sometimes the reality. I also do understand that some people do not
want to participate in ceremony, and I respect the diverse religious
backgrounds and beliefs of participants.  
I think that the situations you describe can be addressed with design -
without inhibiting people's desire to build community through circles, etc.
I've brought government officials to events and explained beforehand what to
expect to avoid the walk out phenomena, and have suggested that they come
after the "opening circle" ceremony if they prefer to skip that. When
inviting officials to such an event, I tend to tell them what presentations I
think they would be most interested in and they usually appreciate that. 

Because the NAPC is so new, and because per survey this is what most people
wanted, and because we are applying (to some degree) the principle "Start
slow and small", the focus of this convergence is internal. We have much to
discuss and work out internally. I also have envisioned, like you, future
gatherings that would include to allied groups, organizations and individuals
- I am very excited about the cross pollination potential that is already
happening in some areas. Networks are an incredibly powerful pattern and have
many uses and permutations.  

One thought, Toby - could it be that convergences are an internal function
and conferences are external? And the reason officials were invited to an
internal gathering was because there weren't any external facing events in
that area? A scarcity? I think it's vital that we differentiate the various
needs and functions that exist within the community, and not try to collapse
them all into a single event. We are talking about succession here to some
degree. We need multiple models to meet the growing diversity of needs in our
community.  Should we be free to internally define what we want to
experience in our gatherings, without outside people judging us? Will our
gatherings evolve as a wider diversity of people join the movement? Will new
"tribes" form as part of the succession process, to meet a widening diversity
of needs? Already, preppers are having their own permaculture type meetings
with their own flavor. 

Maybe there is something in between spiral dances/camping/drum circles, and
uber-expensive conferences in casinos - no? I would love to be a part of
creating a conference that would bring together permaculturists, officials,
and other forward thinkers and solution-oriented people to work out some
collaborative solutions. That activity is right up my alley - it is the type
of work I did before I got into permaculture, bringing together diverse
elements in coalitions around common interests. 

But wait, Bioneers does that already, right? And there are other already
existing models doing that; perhaps more of us should attend those functions
and be a part of them. 

What I'm getting from your comments (and correct me if I'm mistaken) is a
call to more closely define needs and resources of the growing diversity in
our networks as well as those outside of our networks who might become
interested in permaculture, and find ways to meet the needs with the
resources. It entails close observation of an evolving system, and
reassessment of some of the design elements. That doesn't mean there isn't a
place for those elements any longer - but there are new elements in the
system; how can we integrate for the greatest yield?  

Koreen Brennan


 



On Wednesday, August 6, 2014 4:51 PM, Scott Pittman <scott@permaculture.org>
wrote:



The IPC is an example of both of these models.  First there is a Conference
held at a very posh Hotel or Conference center where various pundits hold
forth on some aspect of the theme of the IPC.  In the lobbies there
are
various permaculture displays offering seeds, books, technology, and other
items for sale. 

I usually find these "conferences" extremely boring with an occasional new
idea or technique that makes me think and offers the occasional aha moment.
The idea of the conference has been to interface with all strata of society
and to spread the word of permaculture to the unwashed.  I don't think this
has been accomplished in any significant way.  Certainly the conference in
Havana was mostly permaculture presenters singing to the choir.  The
conference in Jordan had one outstanding presenter who has
done some amazing
work reforesting arid lands in Africa otherwise it was pretty bland and a
show case for Geoff Lawton and an embarrassing presentation by Bill
Mollison.

The convergence follows the Conference and this is a gathering of those who
are certified through the Permaculture Design Certification course.  This
was established to be an in house event that dealt with those things
specific to permaculture as an organization and design system.  It is also
an opportunity for interaction with old friends and companions from afar and
a chance for anyone who wants to do show and tell of their projects and
any
break throughs or new technologies. 

While I always love seeing old friends most of the rest of it is as exciting
as a new type of herb spiral.  I could have better spent my money just going
to visit old friends without the pretence.

I say this not to dismiss the functions of either Conferences or
Convergences but to point out that so far I have only seen poorly organized
and unimaginative events that seemed more an excuse to party than to get
anything else done.  As I said before in this list I am a participant in
these events because I want to see us tighten up
our game.  I don't think
that permaculture design has ever been applied to these events and it shows.
For the most part we are parodying models that have been designed by
corporations and professional organizations, and since we are neither we
don't do a very good job.

I have also attended those professional conferences outside of the
permaculture realm and also find them lacking in grabbing my imagination and
inspiring me to go out and do great things.  Mainly they seem to provide an
enormous list of presentations that make it impossible to partake of but a
few.

Personally I am happy this is a "convergence" because I would like to have a
serious conversation with my peers about how do we become more relevant in
the world.  I am operating out of the same urgency that Bill Mollison
conveyed when I studied with him some 30 years ago.  Thirty years have
passed and our numbers have increased geometrically, thanks in large part to
Bill's missionary zeal, but our influence has not grown proportional to our
numbers.  Time is running out and if not us who is going to provide real
solutions to the physical and social cataclysm we face. I don't see anyone
else out there who has the tools, ethics, energy, and
will that would come
close to what permaculture has to offer.

I am happy to hear you say, Toby, that rather than mainstream permaculture,
you want to permaculture mainstream!  Good for you and I agree that is the
task. 

If we are going to continue having these large international, national,
regional gatherings then we certainly need to make them relevant to the task
at hand rather than a poor imitation of what "mainstream" provides.  There
is so much we need to talk about, decide and act on and my hope is that this
NAPC will provide an atmosphere that is conducive to
these tasks.

Scott
Permaculture Institute


"To change something build a new model that makes the existing model
obsolete"  Buckminster Fuller


-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture [mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf
Of Toby Hemenway
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 3:07 PM
To: permaculture
Subject: Re: [permaculture] NAPC: Scarcity?

Koreen, etc--

Lots of good stuff here; thanks for all this. Mostly my comments have been
to encourage us to up our game; to sometimes bemore professional, to appeal
to a wider audience, and to tap into resources that permaculturists have
largely ignored, and I appreciate the other efforts to do this, too.
Wonderful that NAPC can be a stimulus for this and more.

Re the word "convergence." Most permaculture convergences I've attended have
been just as oriented toward lectures and talking heads as conferences,
while I've been to conferences that have been dynamic and interactive. I
think the distinction is primarily one of advertising and an attempt by
permaculturists to say that they are doing something different. A conference
is what you make it.

For most people, the connotations of "conference" are simply a group of
professionals coming together to share their work with each other, though
usually at some classy joint.

But "convergence" has strong connotations that are very class-specific. The
first convergence that I know of was the 1987 "Harmonic Convergence," a New
Age gathering based on an well-hyped astrological "convergence" of the
planets and a misinterpretation of the Mayan calendar (like 2012) in which,
if only enough people came together, the world would enter a new age of
peace. Only hippies and new-agers hold convergences. I have nothing against
hippies; I am one myself. But I would like permaculture to appeal to more
than hippies, and if we market ourselves using hippie, dated New Age
language, we won't do that. I run into pushback from professionals in many
fields on our language and presentation, over and over again.

At "La Convergence," a large permaculture gathering in Quebec that
I just
attended, a group of the most influential people there (the site owners, who
are serious movers in the community and fiber-hemp farmers; an
internationally known artist who also pioneered virtual reality software;
one of Canada's best known environmentalists, and several others) all
disliked the word "convergence, and asked why not call it a conference,
because that's what it was. And these people love permaculture. Imagine how
others feel.

At a NW Pc Convergence a few years back, several high-ranking policymakers
from Portland attended, arriving in time for the opening ceremony. People
circled up, held hands, sang, did circle dances, and made an invocation to
the earth goddess. That was more than the officials could stand, and they
left before the main events began. Will they ever consider permaculture
seriously again?

So, if we want to reach anyone outside of those already in the
counterculture, we need to stop using exclusive language and practices that
are alienating to most of the population. Many of us are so used to speaking
our language that we don't know how off-putting and class-specific it is. To
attract people out of their usual mode, we need to actually be attractive.
I'm not
interested in mainstreaming permaculture, but I do want to
permaculture the mainstream.

And that gets to Koreen's question about events that only offer camping as
lodging. Right there, we've just ruled out most of the population, and put a
burden on those who are flying to attend (tent, sleeping bag, pad, etc on a
plane? $50 bag fee right there) and on those who are older. At a conference,
I want to be at my best, and after 2 nights on hard ground, in a crowd of
tents with people talking till late, coughing and snoring, and waving
flashlights in the dark, I'm a wreck. I was fine with that 20 years ago, but
not now.

This is all fine for NAPC this time, because we're creating an event
primarily for insiders. But if we want to take advantage of permaculture's
potential to change all of society, we need to reach out to the vast
majority who don't think like us or use words like convergence and Gaia.

I think permaculture has done a fine job in serving the alternative
community and reaching out to low-income activists and farmers, but it's
been to the exclusion of serving the rest of society. I'd like to see us
develop a more professional component, more outreach, and more willingness
to meet outsiders
where they are.

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com


On Aug 6, 2014, at 1:26 AM, Koreen Brennan via permaculture
<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:

> Toby and all,
>
> I totally agree that it is all solvable and it's all about design. Early
in the process we discussed the idea of taking longer to put this event on
so that we would have more time to implement a full design. We decided to go
forward because we felt that the value of having a convergence this year
outweighed the downside. We have engaged the design process, but we have
realized that because of the time frame, we would not be able to create an
optimum design. So the question then becomes what is most important - what
will get the most future yield? We are still getting what we feel are key
parts of a permaculture design for this event done.
>
> For the record, I feel that there are important distinctions between
convergences and conferences, and we need both of
them. Conferences focus on
experts giving others information. They are often focused on a one-way flow
of communication. Sometimes there are decisions made or break out sessions
but usually not.
>
> Converging on a point (meaning a physical location), in order to
facilitate rich energy exchanges is an ancient practice that is quite
sustainable. Many indigenous people have done it at times of necessity. I am
currently working and living at Pine Ridge Lakota reservation - the tribal
traditions of tiospayes (small, extended family localized units) converging
for larger gatherings go back at some length. I just
attended a national
level powwow and observed the patterns there.
>
> Convergences stack functions, creating opportunity for cross-pollination
amongst tribes in a number of ways - historically,this has included an
increased field for selection of mates, strategical alliances and
agreements, and the exchange of tools, horses, seeds, culture, etc. Tribes
might hunt together or do other things where economy of scale matters. I
don't think the concepts of convergence and conference should be collapsed
as they hold two very different functions. There are many elements of
permaculture design present in the convergence
model. I'm so happy to hear
that Jono and others will be presenting info about the successes of the NE
convergences and guilds as there are many regions that can potentially
benefit from that information. A convergence can be many things to many
people and the regional convergences have been exploring that edge. It will
be interesting to get them together to compare notes!
>
> Some have voiced concerns that we aren't ready for a continental
convergence. My view is that things are marching forward in a number of
sectors on this planet, whether we are "ready" for them or not. Therefore,
we perhaps need to push
ourselves harder and get ourselves ready, and a
continental convergence may be able to assist with that process. My hope is
that some of us at least will look outward, at the larger patterns in
society, and engage in thoughtful discussions about opportunities and
challenges, strengths and weaknesses.
>
> I would of course like to get paid for the work of organizing - it is part
of the third ethic of fair share.  The concept of receiving energy for
valuable energy contributed is part of a sustainable system. There are some
of us out there who will do the work whether we are paid or not when we
think the job
is important enough. Whether that is the best possible way to
do things or not, we are filling niches that no one else has stepped up to
fill. I'm feeling that it will be worth it on many levels, but I do agree
that we need to tweak the finance model, not just in this one case but
overall.
>
> And there are a number of us interested in addressing this at the
convergence. Financial Permaculture is slated to be a working group there
and it may end up breaking off into more than one. It is a huge subject, and
there are many ways in which permaculture design can be applied more
thoroughly. I hear Scott's comments
about invisible structure - it is my
reality that invisible structure is almost always the make-break point of
any design.
>
> I'm personally interested in many permutations of cooperative models and
looking forward to linking with others of like mind.  I think that financial
structures in our community that truly use the tools, principles and
elements of permaculture are much too few and far between (a scarcity that
can be remedied with abundances) and am  interested in hearing about and
supporting any that do. I agree that there is an abundance of money and we
should be better at tapping into it
because we will use it more wisely than
many out there are doing.
>
> I've been talking to various bright lights in the movement about
prospective cooperative models and we are coming up with some creative ideas
that we feel meet everybody's needs. I'm very interested in connecting with
anyone who is serious about creating better models than those being
currently used in our movement. I think it would be good for all of us to
consider how we can help each other and collaborate more than we do, and I
feel that in order to make that happen, we need to create structures that
facilitate that.
>
> I am re-studying Donella Meadows' Thinking in Systems and am reminded that
structure and model can make huge differences in system outcomes. I
personally feel that the subject of economics of convergences and everything
else in permaculture goes much deeper than marketing ploys. I personally got
involved with this project in large part because I want to use intelligent
design to move to the next stage of succession, and I see how meeting
together in working groups, breakouts, etc, can assist that process. We are
continuing to design these sessions for maximum effectiveness and are very
interested in people's suggestions,
thoughts and co-creation on that design
process.
>
> How can we bring the maximum amount of consciousness to the process of
converging? What does that mean, specifically at this time in our history
and in the succession process? What would that look like, at the
convergence? What can each of us bring to this gathering that will
contribute to that consciousness and to an enlightened succession process
that results in increased yields, abundance, ethics, and sanity? These are
questions I'm asking myself regularly as the time draws near.
>
> Best, Koreen
> www.growpermaculture.com
> www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 3:12 PM, Bob Waldrop <bob@bobwaldrop.net>
wrote:
>
>
>
> I agree this has been a valuable thread.
>
> In my preevious experience in the convention business, generally you
> develop your budget based on previous experience.  The absolute
hardest
> and most knuckle biting conference to present is a new conference, one
> without an established record or constituency.  The knucklebiting is
> because people always wait until the last minute to book their
> attendance and every conference I was ever involved with sold a lot of
> tickets in the last two weeks.  Of course "the last two weeks" is
> useless or nearly so when it comes to program, because your program is
> generally arranged months in advance of the final two weeks before the
> event.
>
> I think crowd sourcing some seed money for the next event, or
to fund
> the planning committee on an on-going basis, would be a great idea.
>
> I also think that establishing a permanent organizing group is a better
> idea than handing the convention off to new people in different regions
> each year.  In other words, I'm assuming there will be a conversation at
> the event about the NEXT event.  One of the options is for local
> committees throughout the country to bid for the convention, the other
> is to have a permanent planning committee, which possibly could work
> with local groups.  I'd vote for the permanent planning committee.
>
> Bob Waldrop, Okie City
>
>
> On 8/5/2014 1:50 PM, Toby Hemenway wrote:
>> I'm gaining a lot from this thread and appreciate everyone's
conscientious, thoughtful comments. Thomas brings up many good points, and I
also want to get to a few of Koreen's. I think we are getting to some
solutions here. A few responses:
>>
>> On Aug 4, 2014, at 11:27 PM, Thomas Allen <thallen@nwlink.com> wrote:
>>
>>>    Do we put on an event with volunteer labor at a very low price so
young entrants into permaculture can attend or do we put on the best event
possible.
>> Where I'm trying to go with this is: it is not either/or. It's possible
to put on excellent events with options that low-income people can afford,
>
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I've been following this thread and wish to clarify a few key things re the
history of Pc Convergences.

To Converge: "to come together from different directions, to meet; to tend
towards or achieve union or a common conclusion or result"

The first Pc Designers' Convergence was held in 1983 (nothing to do with
astrology or any other new-age thing), then a year later the first IPC was
held in 1984 when the nature of our gatherings, i.e. convergences, was
discussed and agreed to.

Originally the designers' Convergences were held first as an in-house,
peer-to-peer gathering and sharing of PDC graduates, then followed by a
public event sharing with the wider public. Public events have included all
manner of formats including Symposiums, Conferences, Expo and Festivals,
though the Conference format has generally predominated. I think the Expo
format actually had the great percentage of non-permie participants attending.

Convergences were originally light on presentations and big on discussion
groups and forums exploring 'domains' (Aid work, urban, rural, pc in schools,
pc education, advocacy, communications etc), we had biome meetings where folk
got together according to climatic zones to compare notes and strategies, and
there were also often short professional development workshops on specialised
topics (sometimes delivered by external experts). Early convergences
included important discussions, debates and agreements about the movement (pc
education/PDC curricula and professional integrity) and provided a forum for
developing collective positions on important issues of a
national/international significance. The early convergences were more
focussed on strategic development of the movement, strengthening networks and
sharing resources.

The public event was initially more of the "sharing what we're doing with the
wider world" stuff with some keynote and plenary sessions and lots of smaller
group presentations and workshops. Some of more successful public events
have been where there's been plenty of space for permies to set up
visual/poster displays and sell resources which facilitates a much richer
exchange between permies, and the public and also with each other.

I don't know why the order was reversed for these events, with the public
conferencing happening before the in-house converging. I really miss the
original sequence with the convergence first, as we had the chance to catch
up & reconnect with each other, do our in-house stuff and then present to the
wider public with a strong sense of solidarity and purpose. The public event
was also an occasion to launch and/or announce major convergence outcomes to
the world, sometimes together with a media release and at times this has
actually made mention in mainstream media.


Would like to say more but have PDC session (Taiwan) starting in 2 min and
won't have internet access again for another 2 days…

good to see this stuff being discussed

Robyn



On 07/08/2014, at 11:35 AM, Koreen Brennan via permaculture wrote:

> Thanks for your clarification Scott, on the conference vs convergence at
> IPC. We are intending too that this convergence will have more of the
> elements that you mention and remain open to feedback and design input on
> making that happen!
>
> There was some attempt by another group to create a professional conference
> (which would have been more of what you are describing, Toby?), before this
> convergence. That need was and is perceived. The time line was too tight to
> pull off properly. Next time! I'm looking forward to what will be produced
> at the next IPC, and also at how the regional convergences will continue to
> evolve.
>
> Koreen Brennan
> http://growpermaculture.com
> http://northamericanpermaculture.org
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, August 6, 2014 7:22 PM, Koreen Brennan via permaculture
> <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> I want to clarify what I mean by external and internal facing events. There
> is a history in permaculture, and tradition and ceremony that has evolved.
> Those things meet needs of those who participate, but may not meet the
> needs of some of the people who are getting into permaculture now. It's
> good to acknowledge that, and I believe that is at least part of your
> point, is that correct? I believe there are many gradients of presentation
> that can be made, to meet various needs.
>
> We have the needs of existing communities to celebrate together, to evolve
> together, and to offer mutual support. We have the needs of new
> permaculturists - which are varied but usually involve learning more about
> the subject. We have needs of people who are working in parallel movements
> but with different approaches, and different cultural paradigms. We have
> needs of people in different cultures across the planet, etc. What if we
> tailor our events to meet specific needs, and not try to be all things to
> all people in any one event? For instance, when we are trying to reach new
> permaculturists, the focus can be on providing those things that they need
> the most, and let's ask them what they feel that is. When trying to reach
> officials, let's create an event tailored to what is most real to them
> instead of trying to make our convergences fit their realities and needs
> (this is something I'm good at and would be happy to collaborate on...).
> There are many
> possible events that we could create. Let's look at existing resources and
> energies (such as already existing and established events) that could be
> worked with as well. Some of us are already doing this to varying degrees.
> Let's be very clear about who our public is and what outcome we are
> seeking, and how realistic that is. And we can realize that everything we
> are doing will evolve, as the succession process continues.
>
> You are very good at finding a common language which many can relate to
> when you describe permaculture design. That is an important gift. Not
> everyone can or wants to do that - all of us have our niches. It's great to
> recognize and honor those niches and their functions, and to design the
> system so that they all can flourish. I don't think our views differ that
> much on these issues, actually. :-) Thank you for continuing to clarify
> your concerns, it has helped me to clarify some things about the succession
> process in my mind.
>
> Koreen Brennan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On , Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Toby,
>
> First, I wanted to clarify one detail. NAPC lodging is NOT camping only and
> never has been. We offer motel contact info on our web site for those who
> don't want to camp. Harmony Park also offers RV sites with full electric,
> etc.We are well aware that some people can't camp or don't want to and that
> has always been a part of the conversation from the beginning. Here is the
> actual information from our web site, which has been up for a while now.
> http://northamericanpermaculture.org/lodgingaccommodations/
>
>
> I am totally with you Toby, regarding the importance of being more
> accessible to mainstream people who understand that change is needed and
> presenting permaculture in a way that enables them to see the power in the
> design process. I am working toward that end myself and will continue to do
> so.
>
> I was not aware of the New Age connotations of the word "convergence" -
> it's too bad that people get so fixed on word connotations but I understand
> that this is sometimes the reality. I also do understand that some people
> do not want to participate in ceremony, and I respect the diverse religious
> backgrounds and beliefs of participants.
> I think that the situations you describe can be addressed with design -
> without inhibiting people's desire to build community through circles, etc.
> I've brought government officials to events and explained beforehand what
> to expect to avoid the walk out phenomena, and have suggested that they
> come after the "opening circle" ceremony if they prefer to skip that. When
> inviting officials to such an event, I tend to tell them what presentations
> I think they would be most interested in and they usually appreciate that.
>
> Because the NAPC is so new, and because per survey this is what most people
> wanted, and because we are applying (to some degree) the principle "Start
> slow and small", the focus of this convergence is internal. We have much to
> discuss and work out internally. I also have envisioned, like you, future
> gatherings that would include to allied groups, organizations and
> individuals - I am very excited about the cross pollination potential that
> is already happening in some areas. Networks are an incredibly powerful
> pattern and have many uses and permutations.
>
> One thought, Toby - could it be that convergences are an internal function
> and conferences are external? And the reason officials were invited to an
> internal gathering was because there weren't any external facing events in
> that area? A scarcity? I think it's vital that we differentiate the various
> needs and functions that exist within the community, and not try to
> collapse them all into a single event. We are talking about succession here
> to some degree. We need multiple models to meet the growing diversity of
> needs in our community. Should we be free to internally define what we
> want to experience in our gatherings, without outside people judging us?
> Will our gatherings evolve as a wider diversity of people join the
> movement? Will new "tribes" form as part of the succession process, to meet
> a widening diversity of needs? Already, preppers are having their own
> permaculture type meetings with their own flavor.
>
> Maybe there is something in between spiral dances/camping/drum circles, and
> uber-expensive conferences in casinos - no? I would love to be a part of
> creating a conference that would bring together permaculturists, officials,
> and other forward thinkers and solution-oriented people to work out some
> collaborative solutions. That activity is right up my alley - it is the
> type of work I did before I got into permaculture, bringing together
> diverse elements in coalitions around common interests.
>
> But wait, Bioneers does that already, right? And there are other already
> existing models doing that; perhaps more of us should attend those
> functions and be a part of them.
>
> What I'm getting from your comments (and correct me if I'm mistaken) is a
> call to more closely define needs and resources of the growing diversity in
> our networks as well as those outside of our networks who might become
> interested in permaculture, and find ways to meet the needs with the
> resources. It entails close observation of an evolving system, and
> reassessment of some of the design elements. That doesn't mean there isn't
> a place for those elements any longer - but there are new elements in the
> system; how can we integrate for the greatest yield?
>
> Koreen Brennan
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, August 6, 2014 4:51 PM, Scott Pittman
> <scott@permaculture.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> The IPC is an example of both of these models. First there is a Conference
> held at a very posh Hotel or Conference center where various pundits hold
> forth on some aspect of the theme of the IPC. In the lobbies there
> are
> various permaculture displays offering seeds, books, technology, and other
> items for sale.
>
> I usually find these "conferences" extremely boring with an occasional new
> idea or technique that makes me think and offers the occasional aha moment.
> The idea of the conference has been to interface with all strata of society
> and to spread the word of permaculture to the unwashed. I don't think this
> has been accomplished in any significant way. Certainly the conference in
> Havana was mostly permaculture presenters singing to the choir. The
> conference in Jordan had one outstanding presenter who has
> done some amazing
> work reforesting arid lands in Africa otherwise it was pretty bland and a
> show case for Geoff Lawton and an embarrassing presentation by Bill
> Mollison.
>
> The convergence follows the Conference and this is a gathering of those who
> are certified through the Permaculture Design Certification course. This
> was established to be an in house event that dealt with those things
> specific to permaculture as an organization and design system. It is also
> an opportunity for interaction with old friends and companions from afar and
> a chance for anyone who wants to do show and tell of their projects and
> any
> break throughs or new technologies.
>
> While I always love seeing old friends most of the rest of it is as exciting
> as a new type of herb spiral. I could have better spent my money just going
> to visit old friends without the pretence.
>
> I say this not to dismiss the functions of either Conferences or
> Convergences but to point out that so far I have only seen poorly organized
> and unimaginative events that seemed more an excuse to party than to get
> anything else done. As I said before in this list I am a participant in
> these events because I want to see us tighten up
> our game. I don't think
> that permaculture design has ever been applied to these events and it shows.
> For the most part we are parodying models that have been designed by
> corporations and professional organizations, and since we are neither we
> don't do a very good job.
>
> I have also attended those professional conferences outside of the
> permaculture realm and also find them lacking in grabbing my imagination and
> inspiring me to go out and do great things. Mainly they seem to provide an
> enormous list of presentations that make it impossible to partake of but a
> few.
>
> Personally I am happy this is a "convergence" because I would like to have a
> serious conversation with my peers about how do we become more relevant in
> the world. I am operating out of the same urgency that Bill Mollison
> conveyed when I studied with him some 30 years ago. Thirty years have
> passed and our numbers have increased geometrically, thanks in large part to
> Bill's missionary zeal, but our influence has not grown proportional to our
> numbers. Time is running out and if not us who is going to provide real
> solutions to the physical and social cataclysm we face. I don't see anyone
> else out there who has the tools, ethics, energy, and
> will that would come
> close to what permaculture has to offer.
>
> I am happy to hear you say, Toby, that rather than mainstream permaculture,
> you want to permaculture mainstream! Good for you and I agree that is the
> task.
>
> If we are going to continue having these large international, national,
> regional gatherings then we certainly need to make them relevant to the task
> at hand rather than a poor imitation of what "mainstream" provides. There
> is so much we need to talk about, decide and act on and my hope is that this
> NAPC will provide an atmosphere that is conducive to
> these tasks.
>
> Scott
> Permaculture Institute
>
>
> "To change something build a new model that makes the existing model
> obsolete" Buckminster Fuller
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: permaculture [mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf
> Of Toby Hemenway
> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 3:07 PM
> To: permaculture
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] NAPC: Scarcity?
>
> Koreen, etc--
>
> Lots of good stuff here; thanks for all this. Mostly my comments have been
> to encourage us to up our game; to sometimes bemore professional, to appeal
> to a wider audience, and to tap into resources that permaculturists have
> largely ignored, and I appreciate the other efforts to do this, too.
> Wonderful that NAPC can be a stimulus for this and more.
>
> Re the word "convergence." Most permaculture convergences I've attended have
> been just as oriented toward lectures and talking heads as conferences,
> while I've been to conferences that have been dynamic and interactive. I
> think the distinction is primarily one of advertising and an attempt by
> permaculturists to say that they are doing something different. A conference
> is what you make it.
>
> For most people, the connotations of "conference" are simply a group of
> professionals coming together to share their work with each other, though
> usually at some classy joint.
>
> But "convergence" has strong connotations that are very class-specific. The
> first convergence that I know of was the 1987 "Harmonic Convergence," a New
> Age gathering based on an well-hyped astrological "convergence" of the
> planets and a misinterpretation of the Mayan calendar (like 2012) in which,
> if only enough people came together, the world would enter a new age of
> peace. Only hippies and new-agers hold convergences. I have nothing against
> hippies; I am one myself. But I would like permaculture to appeal to more
> than hippies, and if we market ourselves using hippie, dated New Age
> language, we won't do that. I run into pushback from professionals in many
> fields on our language and presentation, over and over again.
>
> At "La Convergence," a large permaculture gathering in Quebec that
> I just
> attended, a group of the most influential people there (the site owners, who
> are serious movers in the community and fiber-hemp farmers; an
> internationally known artist who also pioneered virtual reality software;
> one of Canada's best known environmentalists, and several others) all
> disliked the word "convergence, and asked why not call it a conference,
> because that's what it was. And these people love permaculture. Imagine how
> others feel.
>
> At a NW Pc Convergence a few years back, several high-ranking policymakers
> from Portland attended, arriving in time for the opening ceremony. People
> circled up, held hands, sang, did circle dances, and made an invocation to
> the earth goddess. That was more than the officials could stand, and they
> left before the main events began. Will they ever consider permaculture
> seriously again?
>
> So, if we want to reach anyone outside of those already in the
> counterculture, we need to stop using exclusive language and practices that
> are alienating to most of the population. Many of us are so used to speaking
> our language that we don't know how off-putting and class-specific it is. To
> attract people out of their usual mode, we need to actually be attractive.
> I'm not
> interested in mainstreaming permaculture, but I do want to
> permaculture the mainstream.
>
> And that gets to Koreen's question about events that only offer camping as
> lodging. Right there, we've just ruled out most of the population, and put a
> burden on those who are flying to attend (tent, sleeping bag, pad, etc on a
> plane? $50 bag fee right there) and on those who are older. At a conference,
> I want to be at my best, and after 2 nights on hard ground, in a crowd of
> tents with people talking till late, coughing and snoring, and waving
> flashlights in the dark, I'm a wreck. I was fine with that 20 years ago, but
> not now.
>
> This is all fine for NAPC this time, because we're creating an event
> primarily for insiders. But if we want to take advantage of permaculture's
> potential to change all of society, we need to reach out to the vast
> majority who don't think like us or use words like convergence and Gaia.
>
> I think permaculture has done a fine job in serving the alternative
> community and reaching out to low-income activists and farmers, but it's
> been to the exclusion of serving the rest of society. I'd like to see us
> develop a more professional component, more outreach, and more willingness
> to meet outsiders
> where they are.
>
> Toby
> http://patternliteracy.com
>
>
> On Aug 6, 2014, at 1:26 AM, Koreen Brennan via permaculture
> <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:
>
>> Toby and all,
>>
>> I totally agree that it is all solvable and it's all about design. Early
> in the process we discussed the idea of taking longer to put this event on
> so that we would have more time to implement a full design. We decided to go
> forward because we felt that the value of having a convergence this year
> outweighed the downside. We have engaged the design process, but we have
> realized that because of the time frame, we would not be able to create an
> optimum design. So the question then becomes what is most important - what
> will get the most future yield? We are still getting what we feel are key
> parts of a permaculture design for this event done.
>>
>> For the record, I feel that there are important distinctions between
> convergences and conferences, and we need both of
> them. Conferences focus on
> experts giving others information. They are often focused on a one-way flow
> of communication. Sometimes there are decisions made or break out sessions
> but usually not.
>>
>> Converging on a point (meaning a physical location), in order to
> facilitate rich energy exchanges is an ancient practice that is quite
> sustainable. Many indigenous people have done it at times of necessity. I am
> currently working and living at Pine Ridge Lakota reservation - the tribal
> traditions of tiospayes (small, extended family localized units) converging
> for larger gatherings go back at some length. I just
> attended a national
> level powwow and observed the patterns there.
>>
>> Convergences stack functions, creating opportunity for cross-pollination
> amongst tribes in a number of ways - historically,this has included an
> increased field for selection of mates, strategical alliances and
> agreements, and the exchange of tools, horses, seeds, culture, etc. Tribes
> might hunt together or do other things where economy of scale matters. I
> don't think the concepts of convergence and conference should be collapsed
> as they hold two very different functions. There are many elements of
> permaculture design present in the convergence
> model. I'm so happy to hear
> that Jono and others will be presenting info about the successes of the NE
> convergences and guilds as there are many regions that can potentially
> benefit from that information. A convergence can be many things to many
> people and the regional convergences have been exploring that edge. It will
> be interesting to get them together to compare notes!
>>
>> Some have voiced concerns that we aren't ready for a continental
> convergence. My view is that things are marching forward in a number of
> sectors on this planet, whether we are "ready" for them or not. Therefore,
> we perhaps need to push
> ourselves harder and get ourselves ready, and a
> continental convergence may be able to assist with that process. My hope is
> that some of us at least will look outward, at the larger patterns in
> society, and engage in thoughtful discussions about opportunities and
> challenges, strengths and weaknesses.
>>
>> I would of course like to get paid for the work of organizing - it is part
> of the third ethic of fair share. The concept of receiving energy for
> valuable energy contributed is part of a sustainable system. There are some
> of us out there who will do the work whether we are paid or not when we
> think the job
> is important enough. Whether that is the best possible way to
> do things or not, we are filling niches that no one else has stepped up to
> fill. I'm feeling that it will be worth it on many levels, but I do agree
> that we need to tweak the finance model, not just in this one case but
> overall.
>>
>> And there are a number of us interested in addressing this at the
> convergence. Financial Permaculture is slated to be a working group there
> and it may end up breaking off into more than one. It is a huge subject, and
> there are many ways in which permaculture design can be applied more
> thoroughly. I hear Scott's comments
> about invisible structure - it is my
> reality that invisible structure is almost always the make-break point of
> any design.
>>
>> I'm personally interested in many permutations of cooperative models and
> looking forward to linking with others of like mind. I think that financial
> structures in our community that truly use the tools, principles and
> elements of permaculture are much too few and far between (a scarcity that
> can be remedied with abundances) and am interested in hearing about and
> supporting any that do. I agree that there is an abundance of money and we
> should be better at tapping into it
> because we will use it more wisely than
> many out there are doing.
>>
>> I've been talking to various bright lights in the movement about
> prospective cooperative models and we are coming up with some creative ideas
> that we feel meet everybody's needs. I'm very interested in connecting with
> anyone who is serious about creating better models than those being
> currently used in our movement. I think it would be good for all of us to
> consider how we can help each other and collaborate more than we do, and I
> feel that in order to make that happen, we need to create structures that
> facilitate that.
>>
>> I am re-studying Donella Meadows' Thinking in Systems and am reminded that
> structure and model can make huge differences in system outcomes. I
> personally feel that the subject of economics of convergences and everything
> else in permaculture goes much deeper than marketing ploys. I personally got
> involved with this project in large part because I want to use intelligent
> design to move to the next stage of succession, and I see how meeting
> together in working groups, breakouts, etc, can assist that process. We are
> continuing to design these sessions for maximum effectiveness and are very
> interested in people's suggestions,
> thoughts and co-creation on that design
> process.
>>
>> How can we bring the maximum amount of consciousness to the process of
> converging? What does that mean, specifically at this time in our history
> and in the succession process? What would that look like, at the
> convergence? What can each of us bring to this gathering that will
> contribute to that consciousness and to an enlightened succession process
> that results in increased yields, abundance, ethics, and sanity? These are
> questions I'm asking myself regularly as the time draws near.
>>
>> Best, Koreen
>> www.growpermaculture.com
>> www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 3:12 PM, Bob Waldrop <bob@bobwaldrop.net>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree this has been a valuable thread.
>>
>> In my preevious experience in the convention business, generally you
>> develop your budget based on previous experience. The absolute
> hardest
>> and most knuckle biting conference to present is a new conference, one
>> without an established record or constituency. The knucklebiting is
>> because people always wait until the last minute to book their
>> attendance and every conference I was ever involved with sold a lot of
>> tickets in the last two weeks. Of course "the last two weeks" is
>> useless or nearly so when it comes to program, because your program is
>> generally arranged months in advance of the final two weeks before the
>> event.
>>
>> I think crowd sourcing some seed money for the next event, or
> to fund
>> the planning committee on an on-going basis, would be a great idea.
>>
>> I also think that establishing a permanent organizing group is a better
>> idea than handing the convention off to new people in different regions
>> each year. In other words, I'm assuming there will be a conversation at
>> the event about the NEXT event. One of the options is for local
>> committees throughout the country to bid for the convention, the other
>> is to have a permanent planning committee, which possibly could work
>> with local groups. I'd vote for the permanent planning committee.
>>
>> Bob Waldrop, Okie City
>>
>>
>> On 8/5/2014 1:50 PM, Toby Hemenway wrote:
>>> I'm gaining a lot from this thread and appreciate everyone's
> conscientious, thoughtful comments. Thomas brings up many good points, and I
> also want to get to a few of Koreen's. I think we are getting to some
> solutions here. A few responses:
>>>
>>> On Aug 4, 2014, at 11:27 PM, Thomas Allen <thallen@nwlink.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Do we put on an event with volunteer labor at a very low price so
> young entrants into permaculture can attend or do we put on the best event
> possible.
>>> Where I'm trying to go with this is: it is not either/or. It's possible
> to put on excellent events with options that low-income people can afford,
>>
>> _______________________________________________





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