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  • From: "meta" <meta AT rraz.net>
  • To: "Corpus-Paul" <corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [Corpus-Paul] Gal 2:19 & Rom 7
  • Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 19:26:21 -0700

Dr. Gallant (I assume Dr.), thank you for your comments.  By convoluted, I was referring only to your statement that God would plan (apparently consciously) to devise an incompetent law, already knowing that his created human beings were not able to comply with it (impossible by nature), in order that he could condemn these beings, punish them for not complying, and then forgiving them through the process of the sacrificial atonement for such failure with the excruciating killing of his son, or in the orthodox Christian sense, killing (martyring) Himself.  I believe your argument is much to overly intricate and unreasonable.
 
However, judging by your response to Dr. West's message, and yours herewith, I gather that it will not do to just take potshots at your statements, but rather examine your whole theory, i.e. your theology, evidently an intricate "systematic" theology, in order to determine your presuppositions, both of methodology and basic propositions.  Since I am a religionist (as I call myself) and not a theologian, I would merely reason, taking the Tanakh as my source (the basis of Paul's arguments and the NT itself), and think in terms of an evolving God (or perhaps perception of God), beginning with Torah from his covenant (contract) with his chosen people, according to the terms and conditions set by this God.  Basically and fundamentally, good and right is what God says it is.  There is nothing good or right except only what God determines and instructs his people (Torah = teachings).  Since God set the rules--as absolute and completely God-originated--then human beings can't be blamed for whatever incompetence may be in that Torah.  They are blamed and punished when they have disobeyed.  Notice that human beings are not to think for themselves--NEVER (with many sources, e.g. Saul's disobeyance), but to do exactly what he says (which mostly of course we would say is correct morality--but not the murdering part).  In other words, God does the thinking and deciding, period.  The purpose of his people is to obey, period.
 
In short, God was wrong, because he misjudged his created beings.  Since they never could get it right, no longer was punishment, even in its surprisingly extreme forms, effective in changing them.  Since he couldn't get them to do it right (and he already has killed them all--shortly after creating them--so he could try it again), then (in desperation), he utilized the basic motifs of vicarious sacrifice and atonement (basic from the beginning), to solve his dilemma based on the principle that law is primary and when broken someone must pay, by sacrificing either his Son whom he brought into being for such purpose, or Himself (however your Christology determines).  This line of thinking I believe is simple, reasonable, and conforms to the evidence--the Bible.  I call myself a Christian, and this is what I believe and that it correctly interprets Scripture. 
 
Of course, immediately we must recognize that all such thinking and theology really is for naught, as if we mere human beings have the ability (power) to understand the ineffable God (ehyeh asher ehyeh: he won't even give you his name).  But we are condemned to anthropomorphism (even as Sarte says we are condemned to choose).  BTW I don't think Paul thinks of Torah as a "system of accounting."  You say "God being holy cannot simply pass by sin": So for you then, not only is God limited (i.e. not omnipotent), but also He Himself is subject to law (caps=Law).  But (oddly) I agree with you that your conclusion does conform to how the Tanakh characterizes God.
 
Again thank you, and I would like to know more about your premises (presuppositions) and methodology.
 
I am trying now to become a member, as I sent my message without realizing what group I was on, and for this I offer my sincere apology and thanks to the moderator for his graciousness in posting my message anyway.  He may wish to hold up this response IF and until I am accepted as a member.
 
Richard Godwin.
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Rabbi Saul
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Corpus-Paul] Gal 2:19 & Rom 7


 
>Ummm.  Would then a competent God make an incompetent law?  Even more important, would a competent God make up such a convoluted scheme as to make up an incompetent law for the purpose of killing his Son so that the incompetent law could contravened?
 
On Paul's scheme, the law is not incompetent for the purpose which God gave it.  There is thus no problem.  "Convoluted scheme"?  What constitutes a "convoluted scheme? 
 
As I understand him, Paul is saying that Torah is a system of accounting, because God being holy cannot simply pass by sin.  Nonetheless, Torah was never intended to be the foundation of life; it always pointed forward to the One in whom the accounting would be fulfilled.  Thus to speak of "contravention" is not really accurate, in Paul's terms.  Christ is Torah's goal, Rom 10.4 (teloV).  It was never presented as a schema that pointed towards itself, but as a regulatory covenant between the ages.  (Hence Paul's assessment in Rom 9.30ff that Israel sought *the law* in the wrong way.)
 
Complex?  Every decent story is.  Convoluted?  Well, I guess that's your judgment, but I personally see no need to make it.
 
tim
 
Tim Gallant
Pastor, Conrad Christian Reformed Church
Conrad, MT
 
 
Pauline studies:
http://www.rabbisaul.com
 
(406) 278-5846 / (406) 278-7809
Fax:  (406) 278-7809
http://www.timgallant.org
 
 


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