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Subject: Corpus-Paul
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- From: "meta" <meta AT rraz.net>
 - To: "Corpus-Paul" <corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>
 - Subject: Re: [Corpus-Paul] Gal 2:19 & Rom 7
 - Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 19:26:21 -0700
 
| 
 Dr. Gallant (I assume Dr.), thank you for your comments.  
By convoluted, I was referring only to your statement that God would plan 
(apparently consciously) to devise an incompetent law, already knowing that his 
created human beings were not able to comply with it (impossible by 
nature), in order that he could condemn these beings, punish them 
for not complying, and then forgiving them through the process of the 
sacrificial atonement for such failure with the excruciating killing of his 
son, or in the orthodox Christian sense, killing (martyring) Himself.  I 
believe your argument is much to overly intricate and 
unreasonable. 
However, judging by your response to Dr. West's message, and 
yours herewith, I gather that it will not do to just take potshots at your 
statements, but rather examine your whole theory, i.e. your theology, evidently 
an intricate "systematic" theology, in order to determine your presuppositions, 
both of methodology and basic propositions.  Since I am a religionist (as I 
call myself) and not a theologian, I would merely reason, taking the Tanakh as 
my source (the basis of Paul's arguments and the NT itself), and think in 
terms of an evolving God (or perhaps perception of God), beginning with Torah 
from his covenant (contract) with his chosen people, according to the terms and 
conditions set by this God.  Basically and fundamentally, good and right is 
what God says it is.  There is nothing good or right except only what God 
determines and instructs his people (Torah = teachings).  Since God set the 
rules--as absolute and completely God-originated--then human beings can't be 
blamed for whatever incompetence may be in that Torah.  They are blamed and 
punished when they have disobeyed.  Notice that human beings are not to 
think for themselves--NEVER (with many sources, e.g. Saul's disobeyance), but to 
do exactly what he says (which mostly of course we would say is correct 
morality--but not the murdering part).  In other words, God does the 
thinking and deciding, period.  The purpose of his people is to obey, 
period. 
In short, God was wrong, because he misjudged his created 
beings.  Since they never could get it right, no longer was punishment, 
even in its surprisingly extreme forms, effective in changing them.  Since 
he couldn't get them to do it right (and he already has killed them all--shortly 
after creating them--so he could try it again), then (in desperation), he 
utilized the basic motifs of vicarious sacrifice and atonement (basic from the 
beginning), to solve his dilemma based on the principle that law is 
primary and when broken someone must pay, by sacrificing either his Son whom he 
brought into being for such purpose, or Himself (however your Christology 
determines).  This line of thinking I believe is simple, 
reasonable, and conforms to the evidence--the Bible.  I call myself a 
Christian, and this is what I believe and that it correctly interprets 
Scripture.   
Of course, immediately we must recognize that all such 
thinking and theology really is for naught, as if we mere human beings have the 
ability (power) to understand the ineffable God (ehyeh asher ehyeh: he won't 
even give you his name).  But we are condemned to anthropomorphism (even as 
Sarte says we are condemned to choose).  BTW I don't think Paul thinks of 
Torah as a "system of accounting."  You say "God being 
holy cannot simply pass by sin": So for you then, not only is God limited (i.e. 
not omnipotent), but also He Himself is subject to law (caps=Law).  But 
(oddly) I agree with you that your conclusion does conform to how the 
Tanakh characterizes God. 
Again thank you, and I would like to know more about your 
premises (presuppositions) and methodology. 
I am trying now to become a member, as I sent my message 
without realizing what group I was on, and for this I offer my sincere apology 
and thanks to the moderator for his graciousness in posting my message 
anyway.  He may wish to hold up this response IF and until I am accepted as 
a member. 
Richard Godwin. 
  | 
- 
        
            Re: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploring the	Relationshipbetween	Faith and Works
        , (continued)
- 
            
            Re: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploring the	Relationshipbetween	Faith and Works,
            Rabbi Saul, 08/11/2004
- 
            
            Re: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploring	the	Relationshipbetween	Faith and Works,
            John Brand, 08/12/2004
- 
            
            Re: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploring the Relationshipbetween	Faith and Works,
            Ian W. Scott, 08/12/2004
- 
            
            Re: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploring the	Relationshipbetween	Faith and Works,
            John Brand, 08/12/2004
- Re: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploring theRelationshipbetween Faith and Works, Rabbi Saul, 08/12/2004
 
 
 - 
            
            Re: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploring the	Relationshipbetween	Faith and Works,
            John Brand, 08/12/2004
 - Re: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploringthe Relationshipbetween Faith and Works, Rabbi Saul, 08/12/2004
 
 - 
            
            Re: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploring the Relationshipbetween	Faith and Works,
            Ian W. Scott, 08/12/2004
 
 - 
            
            Re: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploring	the	Relationshipbetween	Faith and Works,
            John Brand, 08/12/2004
 - 
            
            Re: [Corpus-Paul] Gal 2:19 & Rom 7,
            Loren Rosson, 08/11/2004
- 
            
            Re: [Corpus-Paul] Gal 2:19 & Rom 7,
            Rabbi Saul, 08/11/2004
- 
            
            Re: [Corpus-Paul] Gal 2:19 & Rom 7,
            meta, 08/12/2004
- 
            
            Re: [Corpus-Paul] Gal 2:19 & Rom 7,
            Rabbi Saul, 08/12/2004
- Re: [Corpus-Paul] Gal 2:19 & Rom 7, meta, 08/12/2004
 - Re: [Corpus-Paul] Gal 2:19 & Rom 7, Rabbi Saul, 08/12/2004
 - Re: [Corpus-Paul] Gal 2:19 & Rom 7, meta, 08/13/2004
 - Coherence and sovereignty (Was: Re: [Corpus-Paul] Gal 2:19 & Rom 7), Rabbi Saul, 08/13/2004
 - Re: Coherence and sovereignty (Was: Re: [Corpus-Paul] Gal 2:19 & Rom 7), Jim West, 08/13/2004
 - Re: Coherence and sovereignty (Was: Re: [Corpus-Paul] Gal 2:19 & Rom7), Rabbi Saul, 08/14/2004
 
 
 - 
            
            Re: [Corpus-Paul] Gal 2:19 & Rom 7,
            Rabbi Saul, 08/12/2004
 - Re: [Corpus-Paul] Gal 2:19 & Rom 7, Matthew Estrada, 08/13/2004
 
 - 
            
            Re: [Corpus-Paul] Gal 2:19 & Rom 7,
            meta, 08/12/2004
 
 - 
            
            Re: [Corpus-Paul] Gal 2:19 & Rom 7,
            Rabbi Saul, 08/11/2004
 
 - 
            
            Re: [Corpus-Paul] Galatians 2:16: Exploring the	Relationshipbetween	Faith and Works,
            Rabbi Saul, 08/11/2004
 
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