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Subject: Typical Girls: Women in Punk/Post-Punk/Underground Music (Circa 1975-1980s)
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- From: Kelli Miller <kelli AT goodgrrrldesign.com>
- To: "Typical Girls: Women in Punk/Post-Punk/Underground Music (Circa 1975-1980s)" <typicalgirls AT lists.ibiblio.org>
- Subject: Re: [TypicalGirls] Riot Grrrl book
- Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 12:04:37 -0400
These are really great counter points. I definitely understand and respect the idea of public vs. private and cultural context. I guess my point was definitely not to re-release every single scrap of paper or 4-track recording ever made within a certain era. Rather, continue the legacy of writing, releasing etc. reference points to those eras. Things like Our Band Could be Your Life or We Owe You Nothing or even Fucked Up and Photocopied as collections of stories and images of really very interesting and subversive times had an enormous impact on me and my art/music. And I don't really think that they could be considered completely "mainstream" either. It's there for those seeking it out, as with most independent music, art, etc. etc.
And, speaking totally personally, I have to admit that at times I did get caught up romanticizing those by gone times and found myself disappointed that things had changed. But eventually, it becomes a back story and informs how to create currently. So, while we might disagree on the details in this conversation I see the other side of the fence and appreciate the dialogue. It's great!
On Sep 14, 2007, at 5:43 PM, Layla Gibbon wrote:
I think Tobi explained much more succinctly what I was
trying to explain but somehow was unable to do: things
that were made for a community, in a certain context
don't have to be regurgitated forever as the canon of
how things should be for all future generations. punk
is an idea and a possibility not a reverent movement
that worships past achievements uncritically!i wish
girls would make their own feminist punk movement now
and not just reference riot grrrl.
i am a shitworker/write a column at the punk zine
maximum rocknroll which has been around for over 25
years at this point, and one of the things that
irritates me about it is that it's become such a
museum. Most of the other columnists just write about
music that happened thirty years ago at this point! I
mean i love old music and am a total librarian record
freak, and I am not into year zero wipe the slate
clean ideas, BUT i feel one of the downsides of having
so much information (music old zines fliers etc etc)
available now is that it makes people replicate things
rather than want to make their own thing. or like i
said makes people worshipful/reverent of the past.
also i wasn't saying beth ditto doesn't count at all!
i don;t really know anything about this book, just by
looking at the website it looked like yet another
academic/rock critic approach and i am just bored of
endless talking head versions of culture. it's like
something didn't happen unless it's been talked about
on TV or had a thesis written about it.
also if you read any of the old riot grrrl zines (well
I guess I am thinking of the huggy bear ones and some
of the BK ones) it wasn;t meant to be a mass culture.
it was an elitist culture. underground music is not
made for mass consumption. I don't get people who
think that it is. It's such a post woodstock idea, and
makes me think of that stupid MTV slogan for woodstock
the second "change the world just by changing the
channel!" or how people now think they are going to
change the world just by buying expensive organic
clothing when it's the human consumption that's the
problem. buying things isn't the answer!
Tobi explained it so much more eloquently than I am
clearly able to, but I guess my main point is why do
people think something didnt happen or isnt real
somehow unless it's written about by academics and
journalists and/or crosses over to the mainstream?
I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree or
something.
I just don't and didn't ever get any artistic
validation from being 'discovered' by mainstream
culture. It doesn't interest me and is pretty much why
I got into punk and riot grrl (in 1991-16 years ago
now!) in the first place.
Layla
--- Kelli Miller <kelli AT goodgrrrldesign.com> wrote:
I get what your saying, but I totally disagree.http://www.blackdogonline.com/all-books/riot-grrrl.html
Because someone
crosses over into the world of mainstream approval
does not void them
of their roots, so to say Beth Ditto doesn't count
is a real slap in
the face to her/Gossips history before, say 2006.
It is important to document these movements. All
history is told
through some slanted lens and why is it such an
awful idea to tell it
through this one? I think hoping for traces of
indie/DIY culture to
disappear is equally nostalgic and extremely
elitist. It's holding on
to a secret memory that "shouldn't" be shared. Be
sure this still
happens, obviously not every bit of ephemera will be
catalogued and
replicated 10 years after its prime. What's wrong
with building a
history of subcultural movements and allowing that
to inspire future
generations/misfits/girls/boys/whatever??? And
honestly, if there is
a qualified academic willing to write about this
stuff, from my
perspective, that adds a certain amount of
legitimacy to the hard
work that was done during those times. Of course
it's not easy to
find alternate ways to be creative, to get your work
out there,
etc.... it's F'ING hard, damn near impossible
sometimes. If
documentation like this stuff ceased to exists the
blueprint gets
lost with your 1985 mixtapes.
On Sep 14, 2007, at 12:32 PM, Layla Gibbon wrote:
Funny that they have the music editor of IDmagazine
(well she was at the time.. Susan Corrigan) but nothe
members of any bands or zine writers involved in
movement as contributors. So lame. (Beth Ditto,though
I am happy she is a pop star now, doesn;t count!)academic
Everything written about Riot Grrl except for the
zines themselves is either written from an
perspective or a rock critic perspective.Outsiders
writing about a subculture they were absent frombut
is useful to them career wise.that it
One of the things I like about punk culture is
is transient. It kind of annoys me that suddenlynow
everyone is so reverent towards the ephemera,people
bidding on ebay for fanzines and demos that wouldhave
disappeared in previous generations. Not that girlbut
culture disappearing is a good thing necessarily,
I feel like people need to make their own cultureon,
rather than worshipping one that they missed out
then trying to replicate it. I played in anEnglish
riot grrrl band (skinned teen) and rememberfinding
the English scene kind of lacking, I loved HuggyBear
and the Slampt Underground people, but generallyfelt
kind of exploited by the music press (we were allother
teenage girls in the band) and found most of the
people involved just there for the ride ratherthan
trying to actually make their own scene.am
I know England has a weird underground culture, I
sure it's different now, I haven't lived there forinstantly
years, but when I was younger everything was
written about by the NME or the melody maker, andit
was impossible to exist outside of their watch.Our
first ever show was written up in the NME and theimagine
melody maker, which is so ridiculous! I can't
a punk band here getting their first show writtenside
about in like Spin, we played with a Huggy Bear
project called the Furbelows so it wasn't even a'big
name' event. Just endless vampire attacks. We puton
an exhibition at the ICA which I can't evenremember
the name of now, but one of the papers sent one ofhow
their women writers armed with fake zines about
empowered she felt because she had her period atthe
same time as so many other women, just stupid mock70s
wimmin's meeting stuff... Everything we did wasmet
with laughter or disdain, people came to shows tofuck
with girls, it was just another thing for theOxbridge
educated soho media crowd to mock... I didn'tmeean to
write this much!a
I just get so irritated when everyone has to write
book about something they weren't even there forand
probably know nothing about, because they probablyare
either rock journos or academics who were notinvolved
in any kind of DIY or underground punk culture. Ilike
that each generation's zines and tapes disappearand
are randomly rediscovered and repositioned, but Iwish
people weren't so starry eyed and nostalgic aboutplaying
something they missed out on, it was hard work and
really confrontational/violent, well from my
perspective at least, but I guess we weren't
'punk' shows with 'enlightened' audiences becausethat
doesn't really exist in England, . It wasn't likea
constant group hug in a safe space with everyoneit
talking about how great ESG are!
girls should make their own riot grrrl but call
something elsewanted
Also: I know this is really epic already, but I
to point out that Mika Miko and FInally Punk arenot
super into being considered post riot grrrl andthink
that it's a lazy reference. Neither of them reallythis
write political songs... I have more to say about
but I have to go to a dr's appointment plus I ambored
of trying to explain it somehow as I am not sure Iin
have exactly said what I meant to here....
Layla
--- Marc Masters <marc AT crankautomotive.com> wrote:
Apologies if this has been mentioned here before,
but there's a book on
Riot Grrrl coming out via UK publisher Black Dog
October. For more
info...:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/typicalgirlshttp://www.myspace.com/revolutiongirlstylenow
Marc M.
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Re: [TypicalGirls] Riot Grrrl: genre vs. musical-political ethos
, (continued)
-
Re: [TypicalGirls] Riot Grrrl: genre vs. musical-political ethos,
Sharon Cheslow, 09/14/2007
-
Re: [TypicalGirls] Riot Grrrl: genre vs. musical-political ethos,
m. d., 09/14/2007
-
Re: [TypicalGirls] Riot Grrrl: genre vs. musical-political ethos,
Daniel Selzer, 09/14/2007
-
Re: [TypicalGirls] Riot Grrrl: genre vs. musical-political ethos,
Lizzie Ehrenhalt, 09/14/2007
- Re: [TypicalGirls] Riot Grrrl: genre vs. musical-political ethos, mike, 09/14/2007
-
[TypicalGirls] Riot Grrrl zine archive,
lsmith, 09/14/2007
-
[TypicalGirls] Riot Grrrl book,
Marc Masters, 09/14/2007
- Re: [TypicalGirls] Riot Grrrl book, Layla Gibbon, 09/14/2007
- Re: [TypicalGirls] Riot Grrrl book, Kelli Miller, 09/14/2007
- Re: [TypicalGirls] Riot Grrrl book, Layla Gibbon, 09/14/2007
- Re: [TypicalGirls] Riot Grrrl book, Kelli Miller, 09/15/2007
-
[TypicalGirls] Riot Grrrl book,
Marc Masters, 09/14/2007
- Re: [TypicalGirls] Riot Grrrl book, mike, 09/14/2007
- Re: [TypicalGirls] Riot Grrrl book, Tobi Vail, 09/14/2007
- Re: [TypicalGirls] Riot Grrrl book, Tobi Vail, 09/14/2007
- Re: [TypicalGirls] Riot Grrrl book, Kelsey Guntharp, 09/14/2007
- Re: [TypicalGirls] Riot Grrrl book, Kelsey Guntharp, 09/14/2007
- Re: [TypicalGirls] Riot Grrrl book, mike, 09/14/2007
- Re: [TypicalGirls] Riot Grrrl book, Douglas Wolk, 09/14/2007
- Re: [TypicalGirls] Riot Grrrl book, J Neo Marvin, 09/14/2007
- Re: [TypicalGirls] Riot Grrrl book, unmannedmission, 09/15/2007
-
Re: [TypicalGirls] Riot Grrrl: genre vs. musical-political ethos,
Lizzie Ehrenhalt, 09/14/2007
-
Re: [TypicalGirls] Riot Grrrl: genre vs. musical-political ethos,
Daniel Selzer, 09/14/2007
-
Re: [TypicalGirls] Riot Grrrl: genre vs. musical-political ethos,
m. d., 09/14/2007
-
Re: [TypicalGirls] Riot Grrrl: genre vs. musical-political ethos,
Sharon Cheslow, 09/14/2007
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