Permaculture Information Web

[Richard Morris <webmaster AT pfaf.org>]

Heide Hermary wrote:

> More feedback on suggestions for information we would like to record. 
> (within text below)
>
> Richard Morris wrote:
>
> > Q2: what criteria do we want to record for plants.
> >
> > Botanical names and authors, Synonyms and authors 
>
>
> Definitely the botanical names / synomyms, thre can be many for some 
> plants, plus they keep changing as reserach into the genetic origin of 
> plants progresses. Authors - I don't know - not something that's of the 
> slightest importance to me.

Yep, I can't get too excited by author either. It does have some minor 
use in that there are cases where the same name is given to two 
different plants. However, the Authors of the two are different so 
Botanical Name + Author can uniquely identify a plant.

Author info is farily easy to get from the internet, so I see not harm 
in including it. Whether we actually want to display it is another matter.

> I also like to see an explanation of the botanical name - what the name 
> means. (obviously need plain text entry for this)

Yep, I've glean some of this info from  Dictionary of Botanical Epithets
http://www.winternet.com/~chuckg/dictionary.html

> > Common names
> >     Possibly Language, and Locale for names
>
>
> For sure, and once again an explanation of what the names mean.  So much 
> neat folklore, and also often a reflection of the medicinal or 
> ecological importance of the plant. (plain text entry)

Nice idea. Hence

Common Names
        Language
        Locale
        Explanation

> > Brief description of plant
> >     1 paragraph summary of plant
>
>
> Personally I don't see how one can summarize something in a paragraph 
> that takes several pages to properly describe.  Have never been a fan of 
> executive summaries - don't see the point.  In fact it's always someone 
> else's point, these summaries acan only be written with a specific 
> agenda in mind / subjective perspective.  I'd rather spend more energy 
> on proper description.

The idea of this is no such much in the actual page about a plant, but 
more for use in the results of searches, where 50 or so plants might be 
listed. To make the selection of plants from this list easier a short 
description could be useful. We could keep this very simple, for example

Tree with edible fruit and medicinal properties.

> > Photos of plant
>
> Absolutely, lots and lots, preferably in the field where those specific 
> features are described.
>
> > Botanical clasification
> >     Rank: i.e. Cultivar, Species, Genus, Family
> >     Parent: For species and genus - which family they are part of
> >     Clasification scheme used:
> >         Different schemes, such as conquist put plants in            
> > different families.
>
> We already covered botanical names above, so family (ies) certainly is 
> important.  See no need to go beyond that into order, classes, etc.
Could posibly have a page for each family, and there indicate the higher 
orders. Some higher info can be useful, for example the monocot/dicot 
distinction. A broad category like

Litchen/Moss/Fern/Gymnosperms (Confiers and related)/Moncot/Dicot

could be handy. There are some patterns I've found intersting in this 
stuff have a look at
        http://www.ibiblio.org/pfaf/D_fam.html

Its also has some use for plant ID. For the most part easy to get this 
information from the internet.

> > Hazards
> >     Hazards to humans
> >         Toxicity
>
> What might be a chemical hazard under some circumstances would be 
> medicine under others.
> Physiological hazards (plant defenses?) might be useful to humans as 
> well . these are important features, and we might want to label them 
> something else.

Indeed. Happy for a different lable for this. As responsible internet 
citizens I feel that we do need to include the negatives as well as 
positives for a plant.

> >     Hazards to environment
> >         Invasive plants
> >             Locales where plants are invasive
>
> Would also like to know what it is about the environment / plant 
> relationship that allows it to become so invase.  For some plants we 
> know, for others we don't.  Elaine Ingham describes how changing the 
> soil biology changes the flora / fauna above ground. It's more complext 
> than simply putting that plant in a conceptual box.

Locales in some way answer this, telling us where the plants are 
considered invasive.
Definately can include some text field to explain more.

> >     Diseases
> >         What diseases they may be carries of.
> >             For example sale of hawthorns is restricted in    
> >             this country as they can spread diseases.
>
> Talked about this earlier and would like to refer to plant predators 
> instead, and yes they would be different in different locales.

WHta I'm trying to get at hear is more the effect that introducing a 
plant might have on your ecosystem. So its not just this plant is 
"suceptable to this disease", but more this plant is sometime "a carrier 
for this disease" so planting a hawthorn might adversly affect your 
apple crop.

This could be a relationship
(Plant, is a carrier of,Disease)
or
(Plant, is a vector for, this type of insect)

> > Native range or Native Locales
> >     locales where plants grow natively
>
> Yes
> > Cultivated range
> >     locales where plants can be cultivated
>
> Yes - not all plants can be grown everywhere successfully.
>
> > Native habitats
> >     Habitats where plants grow natively
>
>
> Absolutely essential to know as much as possible about these habitats.  
> To the point where it would be useful to have a database of these 
> habitats so one can simply refer to one.

Indeed, habitats is a complex subject. Could have separate page 
describing a particular habitat in more detail, and the plants growing 
in that habitat.

Also a need for plain text description of the habitats.

I've done some work going through the text description of habitat in the 
pfaf db and come up with about 100 different habitats
        http://www.ibiblio.org/pfaf/D_canned.html#HABIT
many more I'm sure.

Related to this are Biomes which are "important ecological
communities or networks of communities that extend over large
areas." These include
    Ice, tundra permafrost, tundra interfrost,
    boreal semi-arid, boreal humid, temperate semi-arid,
    temperate humid, Mediterranean warm, medeterranean cold,
    desert tropical, desert temperate, desert cold,
    tropical semi-arid, tropical humid.
It would be fun to link plants to the Biomes they occur
in naturally.

> > Cultivated habitats
> >     Habitats where plants can be cultivated (e.g. woodland garden)
>
> That would be different depending on the locale / climate.

Sort of related to this is the idea of permacuture zones.
Could have sugestions as to which zones these plants are suitable for.
> > Plant Characteristics - physical stuff about the plant
> >
> >     Habit - tree, shrub, annual ,bienial etc.
>
> yesd
> >     Max Height - may want to include a locale
> >         - might actually be a range
>
> Range makes more sense, is very locale dependent

Indeed. Also habitat related.

Could have something like
Height: 15m - UK, woodland
        3m  - UK, Hedges
        30m - US Rocky mountains

> >     Height after 1, 5, 10 years? 
>
> I never found this very meaningful, depends on locale, culture
Not sure myself on this. It could be a way to describe how quickly a 
plant grows.
> >     Same for width.
>
> Okay
> >     Age range - annual, biannial, perennial (max age)
>
> Sure
> >     Growth rate - how fast it grows
>
> Once again somewhat meaningless unless compared to a standard.  But 
> different depending on soil environment, water availability, 
> temperature....

Agree.

> > Botanical charteristics and identification
> >
> >     Type of flower -
> >            hermaphrodite (the flower has both male and female    
> >         organs).
>
>
> Sure
>
> >         monoecious (individual flowers are either male or
> >         female, but both sexes can be found on the same plant).
> >
> >         dioecious (individual flowers are either male or female,
> >         but only one sex is to be found on any one plant so both
> >         male and female plants must be grown if seed is            
> > required)
>
>
> Sure
>
> >     Type of polination -
> >         wind, insects (specific types), self fertile
>
>
> Definitely, and the types of insects required / preferred for pollination
>
> >     Flower identification -
> >         lots of botanical stuff about how to indetify a plant by
> >         its flowers. Superiour overies. Closely linked to
> >         Botanical clasification.
> >
> >     Type of fruit/seed
> >
> >     Seed dispersal - method
> >
> >     Fruit/seed identification
> >
> >     Leaf type/shape
>
> Sure, all cool stuff, needs lots of pictures
>
> >     Times -
> >         When in leaf
> >         When in flower
> >         When in fruit
> >         Number of fruiting seasons per year
> >         Time until first fruiting
> >
> >         All the above need to be cross referenced with locales
> >         at very least Nothern/Southern hemisphere or tropics.
>
>
> Yes
>
> > Cultivation Information
> >
> >     Temprature
> >         Hardyness - which UDSA zones the plant grows in.
> >
> >         Frost tender - whether the plant can withstand frost
> >
> >         Number of days of frost plant can withstand
> >
> >         Min temprature plant can withstand
> >
> >         Max temprature
>
>
> That depends, of course, on what time of year the frost occurs (has 
> plant already hardened off / come out of hibernation?)

Yes. Still don't know best way to record this sort of stuff which goes a 
little further than the UDSA zones.
> >     Moisture
> >         Can it tolerate drought?
> Drought at what time of its life cycle
> >         Can it tolerate water logged soil?
> At what time of its life cycle

Good point.

> >     Soil
> >         What Ph range it can tolerate
> >
> >         What Ph range it prefers
> >
> >         Can it tolerate saline soil/does it require saline soil.
> >
> >         Soil types it tolerates - clay, loam, etc
> >
> >         Soil types it prefers
> >
> >         Moisture level of soil - tolerates and prefers
>
>
> Definitely
>
> >     Shade
> >         What level of shade it tolerates/prefers
>
>
> Definitely - also locale / climate dependent
>
> >     Other characteristics
> >         A bit open ended allowing for other things like
> >
> >         Tolerate atmospheric polution
> >         Tolerates grazing by dear
> >         Resistant to grazing by dear
> >         Tolerate mowing
> >
> >     Other cultivation info
> >         Free text info on cultivation
>
>
> Great
>
> > Propagation
> >     Time to sow
> >     Time to plant out
> >     Stratification of seeds
>
>
> Propagation methods other than seeds - also their timing, any special 
> considerations. Temperatures, light requirements, length of seed 
> viability, etc.etc. Could be lots of great stuff in this section.
>
> > Pests and diseases
> >     Vunerable to which pest/diseases
> >     Resitance to particualar pest diseases
>
>
> Back to my dissertation on predators.
>
> > Benifical relationships
> >     What animals it attracts
> >     What animals if is a food plant of
> >     What animals it is a habitat of
> >     What plants is is know to grow well with
> >     What plant guilds it is a member of
>
>
> Really , really important.  This includes socalled pests and diseases
>
> > Use by man
> >     Ethnobotanical information
> >         Traditional uses of plants by diferent societies
>
>
> Back to hazards etc. There is no black and white.  Lots of information 
> available on this.
>
> > Edible Uses
> >     Parts of Plant you can eat - keyword
> >     Culinary uses - keyword
> >     Rating of edible use
> >
> >     Nutritional information
> >     Yield information
>
>
> Great stuff.  Recipes??
>
> > Medicinal Uses
> >     Keywords
> >     Rating
> >     text description
>
>
> Ethnobotany, hazards etc.  Same sort of range of information.  Have no 
> idea what you mean by ratings.
Ratings are an idea to get users votes on a plant. Could have a sort of 
rating system from 1-5 to quickly indicate what people think about a 
plant. For example plants with a 5 rating for edibility are the niceest 
and plants with a 1 rating are edible but not very nice.
> > Other Uses
> >     key words
> >     Rating
> >     text description
>
>
> Sure
>
> >     History and Folklaw
> >     Information about curtural aspects
> >     Famous trees inc locale
>
>
> Great stuff, often very useful in understanding plants / ecosystems
>
> > Growing experiences
> >     A place for people to record experiences people have had with    
> >     growing the plant.
>
>
> Extremely useful
>
> > Links and references
> >     Links to other websites
> >     References to books
>
>
> Totally
>
> > Supliers
> >     Places you can get the plants/seeds
>
>
> Wouldn't bother, this information is outdated in no time at all, unless 
> we are talking about gene banks etc.
>
> > ---------
> > So there you go.
> >
> > Comments, additions welcome. At this stage I think we should keep it 
> > just what criteria we wish to record and not get involved in
> > the how we record it.
>
>
> This really has been a very comprehensive list.  Now we just need to 
> figure out how best to organize the information so it's meaningful for 
> the persons
>    - entering the info
>    - searching the info

Ah theres the rub. On to Q3.

A few things have emerged.

As well as plants there are a few other top level thing we might include
each of these might have a separate page

plants (species)
plants (cultivars)
families
other higher order groupings
locales - where
habitats
guilds and other groupings
plant uses
other creatures, pests, diseases

also a general relationship structure, a triple
(Subject,relationship,object)

Some items like height also need some sort of clarification
textual description, specilisations locales etc.

Tee dum

Rich