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Re: [permaculture] Permaculture or biodynamic, or agroecology/agroforestry?

From: DONKA RADEVA <donnybg@yahoo.com>
To: Scott Pittman <scott@permaculture.org>, 'permaculture' <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Permaculture or biodynamic, or agroecology/agroforestry?
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2014 12:50:40 -0800

Hello from me again,

Thank you very much for the detailed and valuable responses!
They were very important for me, as the more I read in the literature, the
more common things between all of the mentioned "systems" I find.
But it is true that agroforestry and agroecology are far away of design /as
far as I have read about them/ and are more "techniques" in agriculture.
Biodynamics is closer to permaculture, but also for me more mystic.

Do you think that permaculture if we mean its agriculture aspect is so far
from commercial? I have the feeling that many permies who have farms don't
want to make business, they want to be self-sustainable. But is the business
in permaculture so bad? If we make as farmers business through permaculture,
couldn't our communities function better, also the economics - I mean we need
to exchange goods/services?
I beleive that if you make commercial through permaculture/farms /for
example/, the common health could be improved - also the economic health of
the communities and through smaller communities to bigger regions? I speak
very theoretical, but I hope you understand what I mean. In this way all of
the elements in the life circle - visible and invisible structures could be
connected and perhaps for good?

All the best,

Donka Radeva,
Bulgaria

On Thursday, November 13, 2014 9:48 PM, Scott Pittman
<scott@permaculture.org> wrote:

Hello Donka,

Permaculture utilizes all of the techniques you describe for the
botanical/horticultural aspect of growing and maintaining healthy plants.
The confusion comes from thinking of permaculture as a technique for
growing.

It was decided early on in the evolution of the permaculture curriculum that
permaculture was the contraction of "permanent culture" rather then
permanent agriculture. Permaculture has always been a "design system" not
an agricultural system.

Our interests are in looking at the whole system in which we live and then
based on that holistic understanding to design a living system that sustains
the inhabitants as well as the natural environment. In order to do that we
discern between the "visible" structures, such as gardening, building
construction, water shed management/remediation, appropriate technology, and
other land based activities, and "invisible structures" that look at the
legal, social, and financial systems that exist in our various cultures.

I think that the invisible structures are particularly relevant in today's
world if one looks at the lack of social justice, financial inequality, and
an increasingly more corporate legal structure.

Except for Rudolf Steiner I don't believe any of the systems you mention, ie
agroecology, and agroforestry concern themselves with design or the
"invisible structures".

While this is a brief response to your question I hope it is helpful in your
quest for answers.

Scott Pittman, Dip.
Director
Permaculture Institute

"To change something build a new model that makes the existing model
obsolete" Buckminster Fuller
-----Original Message-----

From: permaculture [mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf
Of DONKA RADEVA via permaculture
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 3:16 PM
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [permaculture] Permaculture or biodynamic,or
agroecology/agroforestry?

Hi to all permies,

I have a question which I cannot fully solve till now. As you are with a
greater experience in permaculture, could somebody explain me what are the
slight or bigger differences between permaculture, biodynamic agriculture,
agroecology and agroforestry?
I see very common things among them in the agriculture practices they offer
to the farmers and cannot fully understand what are the main differencies?
One is sure - all they are organic and support polyculture versus
monoculture!
I have seen some excellent examples of farms on permaculture principles, but
they name themselves agroecology farms - why is that?

Thanks a lot!

Donka Radeva,
Bulgaria
_______________________________________________
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Google message archive search:
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Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org/
How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
http://www.ipermie.net/
Avant Geared http://www.avantgeared.com/
https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers
practicing and teaching permaculture
while designing ecological, biointensive land use systems with integrated
elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
nature-compatible
human habitat --
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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2014 13:18:18 -0800
From: DONKA RADEVA <donnybg@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: DONKA RADEVA <donnybg@yahoo.com>
To: Koreen Brennan <koreenbrennan@gmail.com>,
permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] Permaculture or biodynamic,
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Great, thank you for giving me this wider information!

Because I really have some impressions from the EUPC14 and also from people
in Bulgaria who don't want to hear about commercial. And I could understand
some of the reasons why they think in that way.
Having in mind, that I am an economist and have the intention to make a
science research and write about the economic effects of permaculture /more
in the aspect of agriculture/, with your information in the last mail, you
gave me a hope that there is a sense. :-)

Donka

On Thursday, November 13, 2014 11:04 PM, Koreen Brennan
<koreenbrennan@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree Donka! I didn't mean to suggest that we are against commercial
enterprise, just that many permaculturists are focused on small scale urban
permaculture. The number of permaculturists who have commercial farm or ranch
enterprises continues to grow, and most permaculturists I know don't think it
is a bad thing to make a living from ethical practices! On contrary. It's
just that many have chosen to use permaculture in other ways than farming.
The design principles can be used in any occupation or setting, to make that
activity more regenerative. I'm all for more permaculturists having
commercial farms, and so are many others that I know, and there are a growing
number of existing farmers/ranchers who use permaculture. Many of us have
consulted or designed existing farms and ranches to be more regenerative and
have helped them make that transition.

On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 3:50 PM, DONKA RADEVA via permaculture
<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:

Hello from me again,
>
>Thank you very much for the detailed and valuable responses!
>They were very important for me, as the more I read in the literature, the
>more common things between all of the mentioned "systems" I find.
>But it is true that agroforestry and agroecology are far away of design /as
>far as I have read about them/ and are more "techniques" in agriculture.
>Biodynamics is closer to permaculture, but also for me more mystic.
>
>Do you think that permaculture if we mean its agriculture aspect is so far
>from commercial? I have the feeling that many permies who have farms don't
>want to make business, they want to be self-sustainable. But is the business
>in permaculture so bad? If we make as farmers business through permaculture,
>couldn't our communities function better, also the economics - I mean we
>need to exchange goods/services?
>I beleive that if you make commercial through permaculture/farms /for
>example/, the common health could be improved - also the economic health of
>the communities and through smaller communities to bigger regions? I speak
>very theoretical, but I hope you understand what I mean. In this way all of
>the elements in the life circle - visible and invisible structures could be
>connected and perhaps for good?
>
>
>All the best,
>
>Donka Radeva,
>Bulgaria
>
>
>
>On Thursday, November 13, 2014 9:48 PM, Scott Pittman
><scott@permaculture.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>Hello Donka,
>
>Permaculture utilizes all of the techniques you describe for the
>botanical/horticultural aspect of growing and maintaining healthy plants.
>The confusion comes from thinking of permaculture as a technique for
>growing.
>
>It was decided early on in the evolution of the permaculture curriculum that
>permaculture was the contraction of "permanent culture" rather then
>permanent agriculture. Permaculture has always been a "design system" not
>an agricultural system.
>
>Our interests are in looking at the whole system in which we live and then
>based on that holistic understanding to design a living system that sustains
>the inhabitants as well as the natural environment. In order to do that we
>discern between the "visible" structures, such as gardening, building
>construction, water shed management/remediation, appropriate technology, and
>other land based activities, and "invisible structures" that look at the
>legal, social, and financial systems that exist in our various cultures.
>
>I think that the invisible structures are particularly relevant in today's
>world if one looks at the lack of social justice, financial inequality, and
>an increasingly more corporate legal structure.
>
>Except for Rudolf Steiner I don't believe any of the systems you mention, ie
>agroecology, and agroforestry concern themselves with design or the
>"invisible structures".
>
>While this is a brief response to your question I hope it is helpful in your
>quest for answers.
>
>Scott Pittman, Dip.
>Director
>Permaculture Institute
>
>
>
>"To change something build a new model that makes the existing model
>obsolete" Buckminster Fuller
>-----Original Message-----
>
>
>
>From: permaculture [mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf
>Of DONKA RADEVA via permaculture
>Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 3:16 PM
>To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>Subject: [permaculture] Permaculture or biodynamic,or
>agroecology/agroforestry?
>
>Hi to all permies,
>
>I have a question which I cannot fully solve till now. As you are with a
>greater experience in permaculture, could somebody explain me what are the
>slight or bigger differences between permaculture, biodynamic agriculture,
>agroecology and agroforestry?
>I see very common things among them in the agriculture practices they offer
>to the farmers and cannot fully understand what are the main differencies?
>One is sure - all they are organic and support polyculture versus
>monoculture!
>I have seen some excellent examples of farms on permaculture principles, but
>they name themselves agroecology farms - why is that?
>
>Thanks a lot!
>
>
>Donka Radeva,
>Bulgaria
>_______________________________________________
>permaculture mailing list
>permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
>maintenance:
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>message archives: https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
>message archive mirrors:
>https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!forum/permaculturelist
>http://permacultureforum.blogspot.com/
>http://permaculturelist.wordpress.com/
>Google message archive search:
>site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org/
>How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>http://www.ipermie.net/
>Avant Geared http://www.avantgeared.com/
>
>https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers
>practicing and teaching permaculture
>while designing ecological, biointensive land use systems with integrated
>elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
>nature-compatible
>human habitat --
>_______________________________________________
>permaculture mailing list
>permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
>maintenance:
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>message archives: https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
>message archive mirrors:
>https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!forum/permaculturelist
>http://permacultureforum.blogspot.com/
>http://permaculturelist.wordpress.com/
>Google message archive search:
>site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org/
>How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>http://www.ipermie.net/
>Avant Geared http://www.avantgeared.com/
>https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers
>practicing and teaching permaculture
>while designing ecological, biointensive land use systems with integrated
>elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
>nature-compatible
>human habitat --
>
>From friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com Thu Nov 13 17:53:11 2014
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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2014 22:53:07 +0000 (UTC)
From: Michael Pilarski <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] Permaculture or biodynamic,
or agroecology/agroforestry?
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Hello Donka Radeva,=C2=A0A book or two cou=
ld be written aboutyour question.=C2=A0A few brief comments.=C2=A0Agroecolo=
gy is the study of ecologicalsystems on farms.=C2=A0 All farms have one orm=
ore agroecology systems.=C2=A0 Some havemany. Some have few.=C2=A0 Permacul=
ture farmswould usually have the most diversity of agroecologies. Monocultu=
res would havethe least.=C2=A0 Agroecology, per se, is not asystem of farmi=
ng.=C2=A0Biodynamic agriculture is perfectly compatiblewith permaculture.=
=C2=A0 It is generally notas broad a discipline. One of its similarities is=
its reliance on on-farminputs and ecological farming. Don Tipping of Seven=
Seeds Farm in Oregon, USAis an example of a permaculture biodynamic farm.=
=C2=A0 There are others.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Agroforestry is the addition of treesa=
nd shrubs to agriculture systems, or new farms may go straight toagroforest=
ry. Agroforestry can be simple, adding shelterbelts=C2=A0 or hedgerows of o=
ne species of tree or shrubto a monoculture farm, or very complex polycultu=
res like permaculture. Theworld is full of traditional agroforestry systems=
developed over thousands ofyears in places like Java, Tonga, Guatemala, Sp=
ain, etc. =C2=A0Agroforestry in general, is not as complex aspermaculture. =
=C2=A0Michael Pilarski, Friends of the TreesSociety

Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski
=20

On Thursday, November 13, 2014 12:58 PM, Scott Pittman <scott@permacul=
ture.org> wrote:
=20

Hello Donka,

Permaculture utilizes all of the techniques you describe for the
botanical/horticultural aspect of growing and maintaining healthy plants.
The confusion comes from thinking of permaculture as a technique for
growing.=C2=A0=20

It was decided early on in the evolution of the permaculture curriculum tha=
t
permaculture was the contraction of "permanent culture" rather then
permanent agriculture.=C2=A0 Permaculture has always been a "design system"=
not
an agricultural system.

Our interests are in looking at the whole system in which we live and then
based on that holistic understanding to design a living system that sustain=
s
the inhabitants as well as the natural environment.=C2=A0 In order to do th=
at we
discern between the "visible" structures, such as gardening, building
construction, water shed management/remediation, appropriate technology, an=
d
other land based activities, and "invisible structures" that look at the
legal, social, and financial systems that exist in our various cultures.=C2=
=A0=20

I think that the invisible structures are particularly relevant in today's
world if one looks at the lack of social justice, financial inequality, and
an increasingly more corporate legal structure.=C2=A0=20

Except for Rudolf Steiner I don't believe any of the systems you mention, i=
e
agroecology, and agroforestry concern themselves with design or the
"invisible structures".

While this is a brief response to your question I hope it is helpful in you=
r
quest for answers.

Scott Pittman, Dip.
Director
Permaculture Institute=C2=A0=20

"To change something build a new model that makes the existing model
obsolete"=C2=A0 Buckminster Fuller
-----Original Message-----

From: permaculture [mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behal=
f
Of DONKA RADEVA via permaculture
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 3:16 PM
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [permaculture] Permaculture or biodynamic,or
agroecology/agroforestry?

Hi to all permies,
=20
I have a question which I cannot fully solve till now. As you are with a
greater experience in permaculture, could somebody explain me what are the
slight or bigger differences between permaculture, biodynamic agriculture,
agroecology and agroforestry?
I see very common things among them in the agriculture practices they offer
to the farmers and cannot fully understand what are the main differencies?
One is sure - all they are organic and support polyculture versus
monoculture!
I have seen some excellent examples of farms on permaculture principles, bu=
t
they name themselves agroecology farms - why is that?
=20
Thanks a lot!
=20
=20
Donka Radeva,
Bulgaria
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Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers=
practicing and teaching permaculture
while designing ecological, biointensive land use systems with integrated e=
lements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compa=
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human habitat --

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Subject: Re: [permaculture] 4-H as Dupont's shill.
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I have heard that FFA was a really good program, superior to 4-H.

What is Dip.? Diploma in Permaculture Design?

On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 3:39 PM, Scott Pittman <scott@permaculture.org>
wrote:

> Thought this would be of interest. I was a 4-H and FFA member in school
> and
> am shocked to see that 4-H is now being used as a shill for African
> students
> to get them addicted to Dupont's Pioneer hybrid and gmo seed and therefore
> chemical agriculture, none of which the African farmer can afford.
>
> If you read the article you will see that Africa is the new Corporate
> frontier and the African people will suffer even more through this
> depravation and greed.
>
> Scott Pittman, Dip.
> Permaculture Institute
>
>
> http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/11/4h-africa-farming-dupont-hybr
> id-seeds
>
> "To change something build a new model that makes the existing model
> obsolete" Buckminster Fuller
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
> maintenance:
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> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> http://www.ipermie.net
> Avant Geared http://www.avantgeared.com
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> pioneers practicing and teaching permaculture
> while designing ecological, biointensive land use systems with integrated
> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> nature-compatible
> human habitat --
>

--
Lawrence F. London
lfljvenaura@gmail.com
http://www.avantgeared.com
https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
Ello: https://ello.co/ecoponderosa <https://ello.co/ecoponderosa>
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[permaculture] Permaculture or biodynamic, or agroecology/agroforestry?, DONKA RADEVA, 11/12/2014
- Re: [permaculture] Permaculture or biodynamic, or agroecology/agroforestry?, Steve Hart, 11/12/2014
  - Re: [permaculture] Permaculture or biodynamic, or agroecology/agroforestry?, Michael Pilarski, 11/13/2014
- Re: [permaculture] Permaculture or biodynamic, or agroecology/agroforestry?, Scott Pittman, 11/13/2014
  - Re: [permaculture] Permaculture or biodynamic, or agroecology/agroforestry?, DONKA RADEVA, 11/13/2014