permaculture

[Michael Pilarski <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>]

Hello Donka,
If I understand you correctly, in Bulgaria and Europe there is a resistance 
to using permacullture for farming or as a livelihood. It is thought of as a 
subsistence activity.  

Both are correct.  Subsistence should be the first strategy.  The second 
strategy should be to make a right livelihood living and have cash/barter 
income from one's activities. 
Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds

 

     On Wednesday, November 12, 2014 7:34 PM, Steve Hart 
<stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com> wrote:
   

 Ahhh Donny this will take more than a simple email, perhaps a skype chat.
But in brief,  I personally have been involved with all groups and continue
to be. Many of the exponents within are very much attached to their own
doctrines and feel that their journey and their science is the most
advantageous in this whole realm of the worlds of the land-use disciplines.
The some exists in the worlds of composts. I guess you could sy it is the
failings of the emotional capacities of our species that develops this
competition. However on the other hand having these different disciplines
allows for some very specific research and development and models in each.
which inturn we as Permaculturalists pick up and use in our systems. We in
Permaculture are very fortunate to have all this specialisation going on
that we can then apply, for we see things as in a complete ecological view,
bringing all ecologies together in the soup, naturally, learning from
nature. And that, is why Permaculture has so much to offer.....in my view
anyway...Steve Hart

On 13 November 2014 00:15, DONKA RADEVA via permaculture <
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:

> Hi to all permies,
>
> I have a question which I cannot fully solve till now. As you are with a
> greater experience in permaculture, could somebody explain me what are the
> slight or bigger differences between permaculture, biodynamic agriculture,
> agroecology and agroforestry?
> I see very common things among them in the agriculture practices they
> offer to the farmers and cannot fully understand what are the main
> differencies? One is sure - all they are organic and support polyculture
> versus monoculture!
> I have seen some excellent examples of farms on permaculture principles,
> but they name themselves agroecology farms - why is that?
>
> Thanks a lot!
>
>
> Donka Radeva,
> Bulgaria
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-- 
Kia ora

[image: Picture]
*Steve Hart*
Ecology Architect
Designer, Teacher, Builder of Ecologically Sustainable Resilient
Environments
Skype: stevenlawrencehart
Phone: +420 728 799 115
Permaculture Global Design:
www.permacultureglobaldesign.org
The Permaculture College of Europe.
www.permaculturecollege.eu
GAPPS The Global Alliance for Permaculture Partnerships and Solutions.
www.permaculturepartnerships.com
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Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers 
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while designing ecological, biointensive land use systems with integrated 
elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced 
nature-compatible
human habitat --



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Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 13:39:00 -0800
From: DONKA RADEVA <donnybg@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: DONKA RADEVA <donnybg@yahoo.com>
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        "permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] Permaculture or biodynamic,
        or agroecology/agroforestry?
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Thank you, Koreen! Actually, I've had the chance to know some of the members 
of the UK-Association from the EUPC14 and now I am in connection with them.

Michael, I don't want to generalize the self-sustaining from permaculture 
versus its commercial use for all Europe, but yes - I have such impressions 
especially for Bulgaria that the people prefer very much to use it mainly not 
with business goals ... but perhaps you are right - this is probably the 
first stage/step and then to expect the next stages ...

Thanks for all of you to giving me more light in the tunnel - it is so 
valuable to have the chance to discuss different problems and to hear 
different opinions!


Best wishes,

Donka


On Friday, November 14, 2014 1:00 AM, Koreen Brennan 
<koreenbrennan@gmail.com> wrote:



There are many viewpoints and schools within permaculture. That diversity may 
be healthy for the system. There are people in the UK and US who are involved 
in research as well and doing some work on that front. UK Association has 
more info about that.
https://www.permaculture.org.uk/research



On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 4:18 PM, DONKA RADEVA <donnybg@yahoo.com> wrote:

Great, thank you for giving me this wider information!
>
>Because I really have some impressions from the EUPC14 and also from people 
>in Bulgaria who don't want to hear about commercial. And I could understand 
>some of the reasons why they think in that way.
>Having in mind, that I am an economist and have the intention to make a 
>science research and write about the economic effects of permaculture /more 
>in the aspect of agriculture/, with your information in the last mail, you 
>gave me a hope that there is a sense. :-)
>
>
>Donka
>
>
>
>On Thursday, November 13, 2014 11:04 PM, Koreen Brennan 
><koreenbrennan@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>I agree Donka! I didn't mean to suggest that we are against commercial 
>enterprise, just that many permaculturists are focused on small scale urban 
>permaculture. The number of permaculturists who have commercial farm or 
>ranch enterprises continues to grow, and most permaculturists I know don't 
>think it is a bad thing to make a living from ethical practices! On 
>contrary. It's just that many have chosen to use permaculture in other ways 
>than farming. The design principles can be used in any occupation or 
>setting, to make that activity more regenerative.  I'm all for more 
>permaculturists having commercial farms, and so are many others that I know, 
>and there are a growing number of existing farmers/ranchers who use 
>permaculture. Many of us have consulted or designed existing farms and 
>ranches to be more regenerative and have helped them make that transition.
>
>
>On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 3:50 PM, DONKA RADEVA via permaculture 
><permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:
>
>Hello from me again,
>>
>>Thank you very much for the detailed and valuable responses!
>>They were very important for me, as the more I read in the literature, the 
>>more common things between all of the mentioned "systems" I find.
>>But it is true that agroforestry and agroecology are far away of design /as 
>>far as I have read about them/ and are more "techniques" in agriculture. 
>>Biodynamics is closer to permaculture, but also for me more mystic.
>>
>>Do you think that permaculture if we mean its agriculture aspect is so far 
>>from commercial? I have the feeling that many permies who have farms don't 
>>want to make business, they want to be self-sustainable. But is the 
>>business in permaculture so bad? If we make as farmers business through 
>>permaculture, couldn't our communities function better, also the economics 
>>- I mean we need to exchange goods/services?
>>I beleive that if you make commercial through permaculture/farms /for 
>>example/, the common health could be improved - also the economic health of 
>>the communities and through smaller communities to bigger regions? I speak 
>>very theoretical, but I hope you understand what I mean. In this way all of 
>>the elements in the life circle - visible and invisible structures could be 
>>connected and perhaps for good?
>>
>>
>>All the best,
>>
>>Donka Radeva,
>>Bulgaria
>>
>>
>>
>>On Thursday, November 13, 2014 9:48 PM, Scott Pittman 
>><scott@permaculture.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>Hello Donka,
>>
>>Permaculture utilizes all of the techniques you describe for the
>>botanical/horticultural aspect of growing and maintaining healthy plants.
>>The confusion comes from thinking of permaculture as a technique for
>>growing.
>>
>>It was decided early on in the evolution of the permaculture curriculum that
>>permaculture was the contraction of "permanent culture" rather then
>>permanent agriculture.  Permaculture has always been a "design system" not
>>an agricultural system.
>>
>>Our interests are in looking at the whole system in which we live and then
>>based on that holistic understanding to design a living system that sustains
>>the inhabitants as well as the natural environment.  In order to do that we
>>discern between the "visible" structures, such as gardening, building
>>construction, water shed management/remediation, appropriate technology, and
>>other land based activities, and "invisible structures" that look at the
>>legal, social, and financial systems that exist in our various cultures.
>>
>>I think that the invisible structures are particularly relevant in today's
>>world if one looks at the lack of social justice, financial inequality, and
>>an increasingly more corporate legal structure.
>>
>>Except for Rudolf Steiner I don't believe any of the systems you mention, ie
>>agroecology, and agroforestry concern themselves with design or the
>>"invisible structures".
>>
>>While this is a brief response to your question I hope it is helpful in your
>>quest for answers.
>>
>>Scott Pittman, Dip.
>>Director
>>Permaculture Institute
>>
>>
>>
>>"To change something build a new model that makes the existing model
>>obsolete"  Buckminster Fuller
>>-----Original Message-----
>>
>>
>>
>>From: permaculture [mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf
>>Of DONKA RADEVA via permaculture
>>Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 3:16 PM
>>To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>Subject: [permaculture] Permaculture or biodynamic,or
>>agroecology/agroforestry?
>>
>>Hi to all permies,
>>
>>I have a question which I cannot fully solve till now. As you are with a
>>greater experience in permaculture, could somebody explain me what are the
>>slight or bigger differences between permaculture, biodynamic agriculture,
>>agroecology and agroforestry?
>>I see very common things among them in the agriculture practices they offer
>>to the farmers and cannot fully understand what are the main differencies?
>>One is sure - all they are organic and support polyculture versus
>>monoculture!
>>I have seen some excellent examples of farms on permaculture principles, but
>>they name themselves agroecology farms - why is that?
>>
>>Thanks a lot!
>>
>>
>>Donka Radeva,
>>Bulgaria
>>_______________________________________________
>>permaculture mailing list
>>permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
>>maintenance:
>>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>message archives: https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
>>message archive mirrors:
>>https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!forum/permaculturelist
>>http://permacultureforum.blogspot.com/
>>http://permaculturelist.wordpress.com/
>>Google message archive search:
>>site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>>Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org/
>>How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>>http://www.ipermie.net/
>>Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com/
>>
>>https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers
>>practicing and teaching permaculture
>>while designing ecological, biointensive land use systems with integrated
>>elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
>>nature-compatible
>>human habitat --
>>_______________________________________________
>>permaculture mailing list
>>permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list 
>>maintenance:
>>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>message archives: https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
>>message archive mirrors:
>>https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!forum/permaculturelist
>>http://permacultureforum.blogspot.com/
>>http://permaculturelist.wordpress.com/
>>Google message archive search:
>>site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>>Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org/
>>How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>>http://www.ipermie.net/
>>Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com/
>>https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers 
>>practicing and teaching permaculture
>>while designing ecological, biointensive land use systems with integrated 
>>elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced 
>>nature-compatible
>>human habitat --
>>
>
>
>
>From scott@permaculture.org  Sun Nov 16 15:03:26 2014
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Very interesting study on Boreal Forest cycles.
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/339/6127/1615.full.pdf

Scott

"To change something build a new model that makes the existing model
obsolete"  Buckminster Fuller