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  • From: christopher nesbitt <christopher.nesbitt@mmrfbz.org>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Cc: Kelda Miller <kelda@riseup.net>, Keith Johnson <keithdj@mindspring.com>, Colin Doyle <colin@lostvalley.org>, Rich Blaha <rblaha@abrinc.com>, Albert Bates <albert@thefarm.org>, Peter Bane <pcactivist@comcast.net>, Deston Denniston <abundancepc@gmail.com>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] New online Certificate course
  • Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 08:47:01 -0600

I have been busy and wanted to chime in on this, echoing some of what has
been said: I think, for me, that I feel an aspect of the in the flesh PDC
that would have to be missing is the fellowship of being in one place, the
community of group learning. I took my PDC in 1991, and it was
transformative, literally. My farm is the fruit of that. Part of what I
walked away with was imparted by interacting with other students during the
design phase, and during the presentation of the course material. There was
one emotional meltdown during the PDC, one bickering feud that flowered into
yelling (one of the two participants was me), early morning coffee, late
night conversations, and several romances that blossomed, grew and
dissipated, or became full fledged relationships. I met my ex-wife during
that PDC. So much of what I experienced was related to human beings and
interactions, site observation, walking, eating, sitting, talking. That was a
huge part of what I walked away with. The wisdom and teaching talent of
Michael Pilarski, Rick Valley, Chuck Marsh, Jose Caballero and Mark Cohen
would be hard to put into an online format.

One of the things I have observed in the PDC I attended, which Michael was
the lead teacher of, and in the eight PDCs I have hosted and co-taught is the
amount of instant feedback available to students. Students frequently have
questions tied to an aspect of the curriculum that can be expanded on. In the
courses I have co-taught, Albert, for example, is fantastic at this, so is
Toby Hemenway. I have seen this many times with Albert, who may be teaching
something and one of the students will ask a question, related, but
tangential to the topic, and Albert steps back, answers the question, ties it
to other things, shows how it is in relation to the larger topic, or a topic
previously discussed, and moves forward. I love these downloads because they
are responsive and dynamic and informative. How can a static format like an
online course be like that? I don't think they can be.

I attended Antioch College a long time ago. I loved some of my classes,
Harold Wrights "Cultural History of Japan", for example. I loved his
teaching. A few years ago, I took an online course in grant writing. It was
good, and there was some feedback and interplay between students through the
"chalboard.com" media. I got a 4.0, a sort of triumphant return to academia
after my meteoric Antioch College experience. I liked it. I found it
informative, especially since the subject was all about writing, about how to
prepare a statement of need that will make funders weep and reach for pens
and checkbooks, and subsequently lay down the ways you intend to address the
target issue, but I wonder how much I might have learned in an actual
classroom. It was nothing like watching John Ronsheim (sp) teach a music
class, animated, moving, flowing, changes of tone in speech, change in facial
expressions, humor, sarcasm, surprise, dismay, and, above all, a palpable and
genuine love of music. I didn't take his class, but merely sat in on one
class, one day, and walked away with at least an appreciation of what a Good
Teacher can to when presenting material they care about. In that one 90
minute class, there were so many subtle and nuanced relationships to the
subject matter that, now, close to 30 years later, I remember it vividly. Can
a day on the internet give you that?

Then there is the question of pedagogy to target audience. In the 8 PDCs I
have hosted, we have taught close to 70 Belizeans. Some were funded by
external agencies, most were scholarships that we provided with the
cooperation of the teachers. Some of the students were mid-level people in
the Ministry of Agriculture, Belizeans who have been trained in schools, have
a high degree of written literacy. Some were part time extension officers,
full time farmers, farmers whose primary language is either Kekchi or Mopan
Maya, and who can read and write, but whose literacy is profoundly
visual/botanic. Most farmers are not well served by chalkboard/classroom
method of information transfer. Their literacy is not "academic". Their
strengths are visual, with a high degree of botanic literacy. They walk
through the farm and GET IT. They see what is working, and what is not. They
know most of the plants and hone in on plants they do not know. Most of them
have no access to computers or computer literacy. That is an audience that an
online PDC cannot reach. Yet they are the people who can IMMEDIATELY apply
the information they are exposed to to their land.

Can a PDC be presented in an online format? Not the PDC I took, with a lot of
hands on work, a host of teachers with deep knowledge bases, students in
comradery, fellowship, field visits to amazing farmers, and certainly not the
ones I co-teach, which are heavy on evidence, using the venue of my farm as a
way to present permaculture practices, decades in the making, well developed,
having been actively managed with permaculture in mind for over 20 years, and
field visits to some of those same amazing farmers. Can the internet make a
batch of biochar? Can the internet collect food to send to an elderly feeding
program? Can you walk in the shade of an agroforestry system designed and
maintained for the last 24 years on the internet? Can the internet put hand
in compost? Can the internet sit in the light of a light bulb powered by
photovoltaics (well, yes, if the system is solar powered...)? Can the
internet use an A frame level and dig a swale? Not really. The internet is
flat. The textures can be rendered, but always in two dimensions. There is no
smell, no taste, no changing sunlight, no early morning coffee, no late night
conversation, no legs touching legs on a bench, no squeak of chalk on a chalk
board. I would not consider them to be equal in any way. I am not saying that
an online PDC cannot impart a lot of information, it definitely can, but the
information will be flatter than a textured, dynamic and flowing PDC in flesh
and blood, with dirt under fingernails, groups of people talking with
passion, and cold coffee in 3/4 empty mugs.

And $2200 for an internet course in permaculture? Sorry, but I do not see
that! There are so many great flesh and blood courses out there for about
half that, why would anyone take an online course for $2200?

I don't see the need for a class like this.



_____________________________
Christopher Nesbitt

Maya Mountain Research Farm
San Pedro Columbia, Toledo
PO 153 Punta Gorda Town, Toledo
BELIZE,
Central America

Country code 501-630-4386

www.mmrfbz.org
www.facebook.com/MayaMountainResearchFarm




On May 4, 2013, at 10:56 AM, Rhonda Baird wrote:

> Bill Wilson at Midwest Permaculture offers a partial online experience.
> People do self-study for the first week's content and come together at a
> location to do a second week in person. I know that has been in place for
> some years.
>
> I have to say that I have been developing an interest in organizing an
> on-line course in combination with a shorter periods of in-person support.
> I'm surprised at my own interest and the logic driving it, as I strongly
> prefer in-person, face-to-face experiences. I am particularly thinking of
> pairing with my state's technical schools as a good place to work. I think
> one of the keys--and Andrew Millison seems to do this well--is to provide
> community online and personal mentoring and support for practical work on
> the ground where the student is located. While less perfect than a
> residential course, I do think this has its place as time goes on and worth
> careful exploration.
>
> I have been part of an online community for 14 years that does its
> education and community-building online punctuated by optional weekend
> intensives. In fact, I run a portion of the online educational programs, so
> I know there are a number of challenges and benefits. There are lots of
> options now--compared to 1998 when I got involved.
>
> walk in peace,
> Rhonda Baird
>
>
> On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 12:17 AM, Michael Pilarski <
> friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I would like to see a comparative review of all the on-line pc design
>> courses offered. Prices, etc. Dan Hemenway has offered them for years. I
>> believe there are others in Australia ? (pre Geoff L). I have deep respect
>> for Andrew Millison and Marisha Auerbach who are offering a new on-line
>> course. Who are the others?
>>
>>
>> I would also like to hear some comments by people who have gone through an
>> on-line pdc. They would be the best people to judge how well it works. If
>> there is no one on this list serve who has done an on-line course that is
>> not a good sign. If there is no one who has taken an on-line course that
>> would give it good marks that is not a good sign.
>>
>>
>> I think on-line courses have their place, but just like residential or
>> weekend pdcs they are not all created equal.
>>
>>
>> As Peter Bane opines, $2200 for Geoff Lawton's online pdc is not a good
>> deal. Geoff L. says his course is limited in size? How limited, I would
>> like to know.
>>
>>
>> Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
>> Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
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