permaculture

[loren luyendyk <loren@sborganics.com>]

Good point Toby about the difference between belief systems (religion) and 
science (observed facts).  Independent of the credibility of claimers of the 
esoteric and occult, I must still point out that the further we go into 
"science" the more it starts to blend with "religion".  In the work of modern 
quantum physics the line between science and religion gets a little blurry, 
at least between physics and buddhism.

Furthermore, the Uncertainty Principle states that we see what we want to 
see, or rather what we look for.  Also, there are new "theories" and 
experiments to back them up that suggest there is an influence faster than 
the speed of light, which is "theoretically" impossible (called Quantum 
Non-locality).  This would suggest that any theory could be proven true, if 
that is what you are looking for, and vice-versa, and that we have influence 
over matter independent of time and space.

Back to ORMES- they were "theorized" by Einstein and Bose in the 1920's, and 
hence another name for ORMES is the Bose-Einstein Condensate, which is a 
group of atoms in the same quantum state that perform as a superconductor.  
None of this means WPG will make your tomatoes grow huge, however.

The real question is, have anyone tried ORMES or Seawater as fertilizer?  If 
not then there is no case for arguing either way.  I haven't so I can't 
contribute "scientifically" to that argument.

If I don't believe that plants will grow better with ORMES and I apply it, 
will the plants sense that I don't want them to grow and do poorly?  Or if I 
just "think" that I want my plants to grow, will they grow beautifully 
without any care?  Is our consciousness more powerful than any fertilizer?  I 
don't know!

I love to entertain alternative "realities", as I believe what limits us as 
designers is our ability to be open to other possibilities.  If we think we 
know it all, then we have a lot to learn.  

Loren Luyendyk
(805) 452-8249
www.sborganics.com
www.surferswithoutborders.org




> From: toby@patternliteracy.com
> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 21:33:41 -0700
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Ormus- ORMES
> 
> 
> On Feb 28, 2011, at 7:41 PM, wenshidi@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > 
> > Toby,
> > I do not mean to argue with you, especially when I consider you to be one 
> > of the most valuable contributors to this list, but I must point out that 
> > plate tectonics, just like Darwin's evolution, the Big Bang etc are all 
> > just theories.
> 
> I used the phrase "plate tectonics" as shorthand for the movement of 
> continental plates and the consequent uplift, which are observed facts, not 
> a theory. The relevant observed fact here is that large areas of the 
> continents are rising and have been for tens or hundreds of millions of 
> years, with no sign of slowing down. There is no evidence to dispute it. 
> None. There is not one shred of evidence to suggest that the continents 
> will disappear "in a few million years." The people who wrote that remain 
> inexcusable ignoramuses who damage what might be useful work  by bolstering 
> their words with nonsensical pseudoscience.
> 
> I don't think you understand what "theory" means to a scientist or 
> philosopher of science. You are using it in the same way that the 
> creationists do (I understand that you are not a creationist), as in 
> "evolution is just a theory," as if there is some doubt about it. Theory 
> does not mean in doubt or tentative. To a scientist, a theory is a 
> profoundly powerful explanation that is consistent with, and accounts for, 
> observed facts. It it a very different use from the lay person's, "well, 
> here's my theory." Einstein's theory of relativity, Newton's theory of 
> gravity, Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection etc, are "just 
> theories" but they explain observed facts in such a coherent manner that 
> the likelihood of their being discarded is vanishingly small. There is no 
> more powerful word in science for an explanation than "theory." We could 
> call the above theories, and plate tectonics, "facts," and I do hear 
> scientists speak of the fact of evolution because we have seen it 
>  and measured it. But formally, they are explanations that make facts 
> coherent, and not facts themselves, so we don't call them facts. Of course, 
> some theories cover facts that seem contradictory or don't explain every 
> phenomenon, but the overthrowing of a theory as established, and as 
> consistent with observation, as plate tectonics just isn't going to happen. 
> Geology makes no sense without it, just as all of biology and medicine are 
> made coherent only by evolution. Those theories may get tweaked, but I am 
> willing to bet a large sum that they will never be discarded. (I am a 
> student of the philosophy of science, so I appreciate the change to rant 
> about this confusion a bit!.  It is a confusion used as a smokescreen by 
> numbskulls to ignore facts that conflict with their religion's stories.)
> > 
> > "Textbooks frequently extol plate tectonics theory without questioning 
> > what might be wrong with the theory or without discussing a competitive 
> > theory. How can students be taught to challenge popular ideas when they 
> > are only presented a one-sided view?"
> 
> 
> Nonsense and untrue. We should teach that one plus one might make three, 
> just so we give other views? Gimme a break. Science is not a democracy 
> where every loony-bird gets heard;  "God did it" is not science. Besides, 
> all the textbooks I've seen describe the steps we went through to arrive at 
> plate tectonics, and the flaws, just as every evolution explanation I've 
> seen mentions what it fails to account for. The author of that quote is 
> simply lying. Most textbooks have been forced to include creationism and 
> other idiocy because that particular lobby is so powerful. It is the facts 
> that are in danger, not the religious myths.
> 
> Toby
> http://patternliteracy.com
> 
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