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Re: [permaculture] permaculture Digest, Vol 88, Issue 35 Farming in industrial zones

From: A Sampson-Kelly <april@permaculturevisions.com>
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture Digest, Vol 88, Issue 35 Farming in industrial zones
Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 11:12:42 +1000

Some PROs CONs and Interesting aspects to farming in industrial zones

* CON The land value is usually high
* PRO the pressure on neighbouring native forests and food miles are
reduced.
* CON there will be more contaminants arriving in run-off water,
dust and rain
* PRO there will probably be less old farming toxins (DDT)
* INTERESTING it will probably have less localised humidity (due to
less proximity to forests and more concrete/thermal mass in the area)
* CON there will be more thieves
* PRO there will be less predators
* CON water will cost more to collect and store

Small farms are successful when they exploit a niche which is really well suited to the site (such as organic garlic or escargot or a rare herb).
A Permaculture farm is different because it explores all niches, goes for total yield rather than maximum yield of one product type at expense of other yields including as the wildlife.

April S-Kelly

Call 42285774
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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Farming in Light Industrial Zoning (Cuauhtemoc Landeros)
2. Re: animals in food systems (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
3. Re: animals in food systems (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
4. Re: How Much Land Does It Take To Become Food Self-Reliant
(georg parlow)
5. Re: Farming in Light Industrial Zoning (Cory Brennan)
6. Re: How Much Land Does It Take To Become Food Self-Reliant
(Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
7. YouTube - CSA: Huguenot Street Farm (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
8. change of email address (Redding, Trudie A)
9. Fwd: Registration Now Open for 2010 Worker Coop Conference
(Permaculture Cooperative)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 10:29:00 -0700
From: Cuauhtemoc Landeros<descendingeagle@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Farming in Light Industrial Zoning
To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
<AANLkTilBAz2_m_Zyh7CohiWNdmHtN4UF8-p-lynrx_gs@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I would definetly look into soil tests to know what ur working with from
there its a matter of cleanup, fungi, plants and bacteria all depending on
whats there. Some of the more seasoned veterans might have some lists for
you regarding remediation. Raised beds work swell just make sure no roots
would go into the contaminated soil. Ive heard strawbales work with about
a cup o compost per plant. As for the county, no clue but good luck with
them.
Grow it Strong.....
Cuauhtemoc

On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 11:10 PM, Chris Carnevale
<c.s.carnevale@gmail.com>wrote:

Does anyone have experience with farming in light industrial zoning?
I imagine the rules vary from town to town, but any general experience
or insights? My thoughts are, of course, buy cheap unused industrial
property and start a farm in the city. Specific concerns are zoning
restrictions and contaminants in the ground (would raised beds help in
any significant way?). I've heard of gardens going up on top of
asphalt in Detroit, so it seems to me that contamination/hardpan may
be possible to overcome. Furthermore, would the siting affect the
health departments allowing of produce to be sold?

Thanks for any input.

Chris Carnevale
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And: http://www.richsoil.com

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 14:26:21 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr."<venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] animals in food systems
To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:<4BF42D4D.40103@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Tripp Tibbetts wrote:

Soybeans no
more want to be eaten than chickens. In practical terms, I'm
beginning to see plants as the "permanent" parts of the
consciously-developed human ecosystem, and animals as mere
passers-through. Animals seem more transient to me. They stop
through, eat something, and leave behind a little fertility in
exchange for dinner. They almost strike me as the real food part of
the system, with herbs and fruit as accompaniment.

Also, many plants depend on other creatures eating or carrying parts of
them uneaten for seed dispersal and thus propagation and continued
existence in ecosystems. Maybe some plants employ biomimicry to effect
this in some cases.

Maybe this is what Bill Mollison was driving at when he said not to
sell anything that couldn't walk off the farm. Retain sessile

He is certainly against monocropping with that statement.
All types of market agriculture could become elements in large scale
permaculture systems designed for sites (farms).

fertility onsite, eat the ambulatory passers-by. Maybe not, but
that's my take anyway.

Toby's article "Is Sustainable Agriculture an Oxymoron?" might even

I always thought of that term (SA) as primarily referring to the ability
of a tract of land to support robust plant growth with sustainability of
other lifeforms existing on that land following.

suggest that this meat-heavy arrangement is actually more sustainable
in the long run since it tends to produce fewer children than
pro-grain and hoarding agriculture.

The meat production is purely a human construct as is monocropping -
therefore a polyculture permaculture system is a better model to follow
for sustainable food production and unaltered (except for removing
poison ivy and certain troublesome aggressive and dangerous critters)
continued nourishment, sustenance of existing, onsite, ecosystems.

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 14:34:35 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr."<venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] animals in food systems
To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:<4BF42F3B.7030001@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Cory wrote:

Moringa and spirulina both are green food that have complete proteins
Moringa is an amazingly useful plant

What about mushrooms; I think some may have appreciable quantities of
protein. The fungi in tempeh adds to the protein content of that food.

Also I see food combining for additional protein from vegetable sources
at each meal as a useful method to use in achieving complete nutrition.
You get different amino acids (?) from each different vegetable protein
source when they are combined at mealtime, such as tofu and canellini
beans and rice and food yeast, add gomasio, seeds, tamari, nuts, ground
flaxseed etc....:-)

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 20:45:48 +0200
From: georg parlow<g.parlow@gmx.at>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] How Much Land Does It Take To Become Food
Self-Reliant
To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:<9CAE12F1-83E4-41C3-8F27-2B773B9B092A@gmx.at>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes

I totally agree about the need for strong community. But communtiy
without members having self-reliance is in serious trouble. Uh, like
the situation we are in now, for instance. You have to start
somewhere. Why not your own backyard?.

i agree with the idea, that community need self-reliant members. but
self-reliance is a mindset, not an occupation. from my point of view
it doesnt make sense, to be i-do-it-all homesteader next to other i-do-
it-all homesteaders, and we have no time to talk or share, because we
work our butts off each growing all our own food and fuel and fiber
etc. and bottling our juice, canning our whatever etc sewing our
clothes, etc. etc. if you want to exaggerate that even mor, why dont
you have your own full self-reliant i-grow-all-my-own-food, and your
most significant other does the same? if you think this is crazy -
why do you stop at the nucleus family? why not apply the concept of
sensible cooperation to community? and i certainly see this as a
delicate matter - because we have to find the optimum balance between
the extreme specialization and thus alienation we have now in our
societies, and the one-man one-gun one-garden approach you seem to
advocate here.

Mit freundlichen Gr??en,

Georg Parlow
************
g.parlow@gmx.at
1230 Wien, Wohnpark Alterlaa B1/013
+43-650-8899345

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 11:53:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Cory Brennan<cory8570@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Farming in Light Industrial Zoning
To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:<963253.81236.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

The site is definitely going to affect what you can sell. If you're in a
brownfield you will have to remediate and go through gov't channels to prove
that you did. It is potentially a lot of work. If there was a gas station,
car repair, factory, etc, there is probably contaminants there. There is
funding for it though which can be helpful. If you go the conventional route
it can take millions of dollars and removal of most of the soil to clean it,
but if you work with the power of nature it becomes much less expensive and a
faster process. I would strongly suggest getting soils tested well, and if
contaminated, working with a microbe and/or fungi specialist to clean them
up. Fungi can even remove radiation from soil! Heavy metals, petroleum, it
can all be cleaned up by nature. All we do as permaculturists is speed up
natural succession and enable it when it can't get a foothold on its own
(such as reforesting a barren desert).

Cory

--- On Wed, 5/19/10, Cuauhtemoc Landeros<descendingeagle@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Cuauhtemoc Landeros<descendingeagle@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Farming in Light Industrial Zoning
To: "permaculture"<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Wednesday, May 19, 2010, 10:29 AM
I would definetly look into soil
tests to know what ur working with from
there its a matter of cleanup, fungi, plants and bacteria
all depending on
whats there. Some of the more seasoned veterans might have
some lists for
you regarding remediation. Raised beds work swell just make
sure no roots
would go into the contaminated soil. Ive heard strawbales
work with about
a cup o compost per plant. As for the county, no clue but
good luck with
them.
Grow it Strong.....
Cuauhtemoc

On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 11:10 PM, Chris Carnevale
<c.s.carnevale@gmail.com>wrote:

Does anyone have experience with farming in light

industrial zoning?

I imagine the rules vary from town to town, but any

general experience

or insights?? My thoughts are, of course, buy

cheap unused industrial

property and start a farm in the city.? Specific

concerns are zoning

restrictions and contaminants in the ground (would

raised beds help in

any significant way?).? I've heard of gardens

going up on top of

asphalt in Detroit, so it seems to me that

contamination/hardpan may

be possible to overcome.? Furthermore, would the

siting affect the

health departments allowing of produce to be sold?

Thanks for any input.

Chris Carnevale
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And: http://www.richsoil.com

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------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 16:55:33 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr."<venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] How Much Land Does It Take To Become Food
Self-Reliant
To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:<4BF45045.9000607@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

georg parlow wrote:

i agree with the idea, that community need self-reliant members. but
self-reliance is a mindset, not an occupation. from my point of view
it doesnt make sense, to be i-do-it-all homesteader next to other i-do-
it-all homesteaders, and we have no time to talk or share,

That is exactly the way it should be "i-do-it-all homesteader next to
other i-do-it-all homesteaders" and of course you/all would have time to
talk and share and build community and work, not just as individuals but
as a community, one that interrelates with neighboring communities with
bioregions implementing maximum communication, exchange of resources,
share, barter and sell with the entire system. It is exactly as stated:
"I totally agree about the need for strong community. But communtiy
without members having self-reliance is in serious trouble." I advocate
maximum self-reliance, self-sufficiency and independence for each node
in the system, each member of each family in each community, as a
mindset and certainly as a primary endeavor and in some cases primary or
secondary occupation.
It's different where you are in Austria, George, as I see it, everything
has its place and systems are well organized and fixed to some degree or
another. Here in the USA we are back to the frontier days, i.e. we need
to build order out of chaos, more now than ever before.
Again I refer to:
> I totally agree about the need for strong community. But communtiy
> without members having self-reliance is in serious trouble. Uh, like
> the situation we are in now, for instance. You have to start
> somewhere. Why not your own backyard?.
georg parlow wrote:
> why not apply the concept of

sensible cooperation to community? and i certainly see this as a
delicate matter - because we have to find the optimum balance between
the extreme specialization and thus alienation we have now in our
societies, and the one-man one-gun one-garden approach you seem to
advocate here.

See above and many of my other posts about building communities within
bioregions with in-depth resource networking.

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 16:59:42 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr."<venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
Subject: [permaculture] YouTube - CSA: Huguenot Street Farm
To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>, Market Farming
<marketfarming@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:<4BF4513E.7070609@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

YouTube - CSA: Huguenot Street Farm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJUtTvZQGpM&feature=related

an electric tractor
a motherload of fascinating useful well-prepared videos to spend days
watching

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 16:58:41 -0500
From: "Redding, Trudie A"<tredding@mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: [permaculture] change of email address
To: "permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org"<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
<F977BA48F2F42A488697BCEBC9FF98FB4BF42F28C5@MAIL01.austin.utexas.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Please change my email address from tredding@mail.utexas.edu to
trrredding@gmail.com

--
Thanks! Trudie Redding

------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 10:02:39 -0700
From: Permaculture Cooperative<permaculturecoop@gmail.com>
Subject: [permaculture] Fwd: Registration Now Open for 2010 Worker
Coop Conference
To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
<AANLkTinvCTSoxBtRFq-3BpxRNTcDzvP70TlgZaraAxXz@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252

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Date: Thu, May 20, 2010 at 8:22 AM
Subject: Registration Now Open for 2010 Worker Coop Conference
To: permaculturecoop@gmail.com

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Re: [permaculture] permaculture Digest, Vol 88, Issue 35 Farming in industrial zones, A Sampson-Kelly, 05/20/2010