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- From: "Kim Swearingen" <strawboss@permaearth.org>
- To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
- Subject: Re: [permaculture] goat worming plants
- Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 10:30:59 -0700
My goats won't touch Russian Olive. They adore some of the rampant growing great basin shrubs that you probably can't grow like four wing saltbush and greasewood. Other favorites that would work for you are black locust and mulberry. Haven't found a fruit tree or rose that they don't like but they won't touch currants. They get all fruit tree prunings but the coppiced mulberries are what produce huge amounts for them along with all the black locust suckers.
Kim
----- Original Message ----- From: <permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org>
To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 10:21 AM
Subject: permaculture Digest, Vol 88, Issue 32
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Today's Topics:
1. animals in food systems (Rain Tenaqiya)
2. NAFEX (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
3. Re: How Much Land Does It Take To Become Food Self-Reliant
(Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
4. Re: animals in food systems (Les Mulder)
5. Re: How Much Land Does It Take To Become Food Self-Reliant (Josh)
6. Re: animals in food systems (Jay Woods)
7. Re: goat worming plants? (Tripp Tibbetts)
8. Re: How Much Land Does It Take To Become Food Self-Reliant
(jamesdavid Sneed)
9. Re: How Much Land Does It Take To Become Food Self-Reliant
(jamesdavid Sneed)
10. Re: animals in food systems (jamesdavid Sneed)
11. Re: goat worming plants? (jamesdavid Sneed)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 13:53:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rain Tenaqiya <raincascadia@yahoo.com>
Subject: [permaculture] animals in food systems
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <930211.94774.qm@web65805.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
I'm not big on animals in permaculture systems, but this article was so thoughtful and thorough that I wanted to share it:
?
The Case for Sustainable Meat
http://www.alternet.org/food/146875/the_case_for_sustainable_meat/
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 22:13:56 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
Subject: [permaculture] NAFEX
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>, Market Farming
<marketfarming@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <4BF1F7E4.5020903@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
North American Fruit Explorers (NAFEX)
http://nafex.org/
(hosted by ibiblio)
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 00:46:10 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] How Much Land Does It Take To Become Food
Self-Reliant
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <4BF21B92.1000106@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
jamesdavid Sneed wrote:
Good gardening, everybody.
James David
Here you go, James...
http://picasaweb.google.com/venaura/BOOKS#5472464825019109250
Relax and meditate on this. Imagine embarking on a month long odyssey
along a remote river system in the north woods, fishing and hunting,
foraging wild foods, taking in the scene, being close to Nature,
learning survival skills, appreciating Earth's bounty...
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 10:06:25 +0000
From: Les Mulder <les@mulder.com.au>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] animals in food systems
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
<20301C53AB4F0D4FB6A203F548068F7D1B3B30@mulsydms02.mulder.local>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Rain wrote:
I'm not big on animals in permaculture systems <snip>
Hello Rain,
Thanks for the interesting link.
Would it be possible for you to elucidate on your statement about animals in permaculture systems? I'd really like to understand the reasoning behind it, as it does seem to contradict a lot of the permaculture teaching I've been exposed to to date (where animals are deemed to be integral to permaculture, especially in food forests) and I'm always interested in new ideas...
Thanks & regards,
Les
?
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 08:40:20 -0400
From: Josh <serjosh@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] How Much Land Does It Take To Become Food
Self-Reliant
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
<AANLkTilJzRxvVOALYLPEN2aw8eATG5idomO5xJiipr3A@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Can't grow salt, but you can grow colts foot..I've never tried it
myself but I've read of Native Americans burning colts foot and using
the residue as a salt substitute.
On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 8:59 PM, Lawrence F. London, Jr.
<venaurafarm@bellsouth.net> wrote:
jamesdavid Sneed wrote:
<...>
Glad to see your followup in this important thread. Roll on!
You _can_ grow _all_ your own food, except salt. Depends on your diet
and physical condition as to how successful you will be at maintaning a
health state of being. Permaculture should not teach that you _should_
do this but should urge everyone to grow some of eir food if that can
and if not barter or buy it from others who grow for themselves or also
for market with the commericial grocery chain conventional or organic
offerings as a last choice. This is going to be a bigger and bigger deal
as time passes andwe move past high noon with access to fossil fuel
and other products they make possible.
_______________________________________________
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Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
More information:
http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com
permaculture forums ?http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
And: http://www.richsoil.com
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 07:49:30 -0500
From: Jay Woods <woodsjay@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] animals in food systems
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <201005180749.30530.woodsjay@cox.net>
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
On Tuesday, May 18, 2010 05:06:25 am Les Mulder wrote:
Rain wrote:
> I'm not big on animals in permaculture systems <snip>
Hello Rain,
Would it be possible for you to elucidate on your statement about
animals in permaculture systems? I'd really like to understand the
reasoning behind it, as it does seem to contradict a lot of the
permaculture teaching I've been exposed to to date (where animals
are deemed to be integral to permaculture, especially in food
forests) and I'm always interested in new ideas...
I'm not Rain but keep in mind that there is more than one kind of us
Permaculturists. For example, I have concentrated on raising my trees
from seedlings recovered from under the parent tree (or some nearby tree
tree where the fruit was carried for consumption, etc.). That said, the
parent trees that are used have been selected for the quality of the
fruit, yield, ripening period, and byproducts such as flowers, honey,
quality of offspring, and timber. All the knowledge about the life cycle
that can be gleaned will probably turn out to be useful.
The driving force (beside that I like communing with the trees) is
minimal labor for maintenance and expansion of the food forest.
For me the same applies to livestock. As an example, I would choose wild
turkeys over domestic turkeys. This sticks me with optimizing their
environment and figuring out how to hunt them but I am not needed for
their usual life cycle. A population of 1/acre can be maintained.
Thanks & regards,
Les
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------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 06:40:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tripp Tibbetts <slowfoodguy@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] goat worming plants?
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <674785.34886.qm@web59505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Thank you Douglas, Scott, Dylan, Lisa, and Steve!? Always appreciate advice from people with solid hands-on experience.? Lespedeza was mentioned during the goat exchange as a possibility, and my wife and Steve both mentioned wormwood.? Sounds like Russian/Autumn olive is more trouble than it's worth, as kudzu would be, even if they're just doing their job!
?
I think I'll try the Siberian pea shrub, maybe in a semi-shade location since it's so bloody hot down here, and I was already considering planting black walnuts in the "back 40" between a?mature?pecan and?hackberry - see if I can get a Hemenway-style, juglone-neutralizing walnut guild going.? For blacks it takes two to fruit; I assume I could plant them in the same hole to save space?? Anyone done this?
?
Possible chance of buying the 1/4 acre and house next door to us for under $5000!? That would double our garden and give us the option of housing a wwoofer for the season starting 2011.? Under 10k for 2 houses and a half acre in town.? There will always be options for the flexible!
?
Thanks again, guys.
Tripp out.
The best fertilizer is the gardener's shadow.
-Chinese proverb
?
--- On Sun, 5/16/10, Douglas Woodard <dwoodard@becon.org> wrote:
From: Douglas Woodard <dwoodard@becon.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] goat worming plants?
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Sunday, May 16, 2010, 3:33 AM
You might look into the various lespedezas native and exotic, some have
been used as commercial forage crops.
I've read that birdsfoot trefoil helps sheep with parasites due to the
tannin content.
Doug Woodard
St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada
Tripp Tibbetts wrote:
We just got a new Kiko nanny goat this morning, freshly wormed from her previous owner, and I'm wondering what I can plant in the orchard to help with worms in the future, as Ivermectin isn't exactly part of my typical grocery list.? At Darren Doherty's Keyline class in Aromas, CA, back in October someone mentioned using diatomaceous earth, at which point I caught Darren's eye and we were both shaking our heads.? Wha?? But surely there are plants that can help in this regard.? Would love to hear about them._______________________________________________
?
Also, we're in a hot muggy zone 8 climate in the southeastern US and I'm looking for diversity in the high-protein fodder department.? Does anyone have experience with Siberian pea shrub down here?? What about mimosa?? Not a lot of foliage, so not sure it's worth planting, but grows readily here.? What else?? Eleagnus?? Russian olive does almost too well around here.? Do goats dig it?
?
Cheers,
Tripp
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------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 09:25:24 -0700
From: jamesdavid Sneed <harvestcircle@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] How Much Land Does It Take To Become Food
Self-Reliant
To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <SNT131-w60B01F0625526F4E1D3F7EB2E10@phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I have seen very small-scale salt evaporation projects in both Washington state and southeast Alaska. Also, many northwest pacific coastal tribes relied on seaweed for their salt. When we gather it for drying, we often find visible salt crystals on the leaves. Some methods of preserving salmon involve first wrapping the fish in layers of seaweed.
Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 20:59:34 -0400
From: venaurafarm@bellsouth.net
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [permaculture] How Much Land Does It Take To Become Food Self-Reliant
jamesdavid Sneed wrote:
<...>
Glad to see your followup in this important thread. Roll on!
You _can_ grow _all_ your own food, except salt. Depends on your diet
and physical condition as to how successful you will be at maintaning a
health state of being. Permaculture should not teach that you _should_
do this but should urge everyone to grow some of eir food if that can
and if not barter or buy it from others who grow for themselves or also
for market with the commericial grocery chain conventional or organic
offerings as a last choice. This is going to be a bigger and bigger deal
as time passes andwe move past high noon with access to fossil fuel
and other products they make possible.
_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
More information:
http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com
permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
And: http://www.richsoil.com
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------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 09:27:54 -0700
From: jamesdavid Sneed <harvestcircle@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] How Much Land Does It Take To Become Food
Self-Reliant
To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <SNT131-w55C237075E12D33563181BB2E10@phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Are you saying that taxes are necessary for permaculture?
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 00:17:48 -0700
From: diebrand@yahoo.com
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [permaculture] How Much Land Does It Take To Become Food Self-Reliant
Hi,
I haven?t followed this discussion, so I apologize if I repeat something that has already been said.
>... no it doesn't take hundreds or acres or miles
> or whatever Toby said for wild harvests.
In Japan, on highly fertile soil with more than enough rain, a quarter acre of intensive farming is more than enough to grow most of your own food. On very poor soil in the arid climate of the South of Portugal, even 30 acres are hardly enough to sustain a family. And to live on the few berries or mushrooms that will grow here in the wild, even 1,000 acres wouldn?t be enough to feed a person.
Fukuoka floated this idea about a quarter acre for every family in the early 90s. At the same time he also advocated doing away with the liquor tax. As a farmer he was a genius, but as a social thinker he was a pure catastrophe.
Dieter Brand
Portugal
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Message: 10
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 09:36:09 -0700
From: jamesdavid Sneed <harvestcircle@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] animals in food systems
To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <SNT131-w6291B04146D617BE989A74B2E10@phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Some animals can be "planted" responsibly as long as one takes care that their behaviors don't impact an area deleteriously. While feral pigs can be a big problem in some areas, I've also seen them put on a moderate sized island from which they could not swim away. However, the steward has to be committed to harvesting enough of them that they won'st damage their own resource base or adjoining areas. I've also seen the same donw with goats, soay sheep, wild turkeys, and old english game chickens.
Again, it is a matter of commitment to fulfill the details of responsible stewardship.
From: woodsjay@cox.net
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 07:49:30 -0500
Subject: Re: [permaculture] animals in food systems
On Tuesday, May 18, 2010 05:06:25 am Les Mulder wrote:
> Rain wrote:
> > I'm not big on animals in permaculture systems <snip>
>
> Hello Rain,
>
> Would it be possible for you to elucidate on your statement about
> animals in permaculture systems? I'd really like to understand the
> reasoning behind it, as it does seem to contradict a lot of the
> permaculture teaching I've been exposed to to date (where animals
> are deemed to be integral to permaculture, especially in food
> forests) and I'm always interested in new ideas...
I'm not Rain but keep in mind that there is more than one kind of us
Permaculturists. For example, I have concentrated on raising my trees
from seedlings recovered from under the parent tree (or some nearby tree
tree where the fruit was carried for consumption, etc.). That said, the
parent trees that are used have been selected for the quality of the
fruit, yield, ripening period, and byproducts such as flowers, honey,
quality of offspring, and timber. All the knowledge about the life cycle
that can be gleaned will probably turn out to be useful.
The driving force (beside that I like communing with the trees) is
minimal labor for maintenance and expansion of the food forest.
For me the same applies to livestock. As an example, I would choose wild
turkeys over domestic turkeys. This sticks me with optimizing their
environment and figuring out how to hunt them but I am not needed for
their usual life cycle. A population of 1/acre can be maintained.
>
> Thanks & regards,
>
> Les
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> More information:
> http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com
> permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
> And: http://www.richsoil.com
_______________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 09:41:57 -0700
From: jamesdavid Sneed <harvestcircle@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] goat worming plants?
To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <SNT131-w169623ACA026AC93F0103B2E10@phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Do any of you goatherds have any experience on the effect of comfrey on goats, especially pregnant or nursing mamas? How about on sheep?
Also, does anyone have the list of the five or so common toxic plants for goats? I remember foxglove, false hellebore, and monkshood, but can't remember the rest.
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 06:40:13 -0700
From: slowfoodguy@yahoo.com
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [permaculture] goat worming plants?
Thank you Douglas, Scott, Dylan, Lisa, and Steve! Always appreciate advice from people with solid hands-on experience. Lespedeza was mentioned during the goat exchange as a possibility, and my wife and Steve both mentioned wormwood. Sounds like Russian/Autumn olive is more trouble than it's worth, as kudzu would be, even if they're just doing their job!
I think I'll try the Siberian pea shrub, maybe in a semi-shade location since it's so bloody hot down here, and I was already considering planting black walnuts in the "back 40" between a mature pecan and hackberry - see if I can get a Hemenway-style, juglone-neutralizing walnut guild going. For blacks it takes two to fruit; I assume I could plant them in the same hole to save space? Anyone done this?
Possible chance of buying the 1/4 acre and house next door to us for under $5000! That would double our garden and give us the option of housing a wwoofer for the season starting 2011. Under 10k for 2 houses and a half acre in town. There will always be options for the flexible!
Thanks again, guys.
Tripp out.
The best fertilizer is the gardener's shadow.
-Chinese proverb
--- On Sun, 5/16/10, Douglas Woodard <dwoodard@becon.org> wrote:
From: Douglas Woodard <dwoodard@becon.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] goat worming plants?
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Sunday, May 16, 2010, 3:33 AM
You might look into the various lespedezas native and exotic, some have
been used as commercial forage crops.
I've read that birdsfoot trefoil helps sheep with parasites due to the
tannin content.
Doug Woodard
St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada
Tripp Tibbetts wrote:
> We just got a new Kiko nanny goat this morning, freshly wormed from her > previous owner, and I'm wondering what I can plant in the orchard to > help with worms in the future, as Ivermectin isn't exactly part of my > typical grocery list. At Darren Doherty's Keyline class in Aromas, CA, > back in October someone mentioned using diatomaceous earth, at which > point I caught Darren's eye and we were both shaking our heads. Wha? > But surely there are plants that can help in this regard. Would love > to hear about them.
>
> Also, we're in a hot muggy zone 8 climate in the southeastern US and > I'm looking for diversity in the high-protein fodder department. Does > anyone have experience with Siberian pea shrub down here? What about > mimosa? Not a lot of foliage, so not sure it's worth planting, but > grows readily here. What else? Eleagnus? Russian olive does almost > too well around here. Do goats dig it?
>
> Cheers,
> Tripp
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End of permaculture Digest, Vol 88, Issue 32
********************************************
- Re: [permaculture] goat worming plants, Kim Swearingen, 05/18/2010
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