permaculture

[kevin s <k.skvorak@verizon.net>]

well,

i appreciate scott, and toby, and others who have been involved in PC 
for much longer than i have who took the time for the thoughtful 
replies to this question

here is an effort to 'reflect back' what i 'heard' from folks:

 People feel there may be a need for a national US organization, but:

1) have been hurt and frustrated by efforts in the past that didn't 
come together, and are still too traumatized by that to try again

2) don't believe in or trust that permaculturalists working together 
in an egalitarian membership run organization will ever work because 
there is too big a divide between the woo-woo's and the would be 
professionals etc

3) people have a general hostility to "democratic" organization 
methods in general...? and then use the corrupt example of US 
plutocratic/corporate/media/military run political system as 
justification for this.  (i am honestly having some real trouble with 
this one)

4)  and other mostly negative comments about the  the belief that 
control freaks and others who do not have adequate bowel function 
will somehow subvert the organization....etc

well, again all i can say is i appreciate the information.  it is 
helping my process of observation

it appears that Permaculturalists, at least those on this listserve, 
have consistently  low expectations on the behavior of their 
colleagues

for myself, i am not so cynical, or lacking in trust of my fellow 
travellers good intentions that i am going to withdraw from efforts 
to be part of building the kind of horizontal, community based and 
controlled organizations that i believe are as essential to our 
success and survival as any other designs we are undertaking

in my observation in fact 'invisible structures' like this are 
working all over the world, in all types of societies and are the 
strongest structures of resistance to the death culture that we have. 
surely others can open their eyes to what is happening and observe 
this?

i deeply believe that the invisible structures that most fully embody 
the principles of openness, transparency, egalitarianism, democracy, 
etc are the ones that will have the resiliency, adaptability, and 
sustainability that we are all talking about and claim to desire, and 
nothing in my 40+ yrs of experience has shown me anything different.

and i am perfectly happy being in an organization like that where i 
do NOT control the outcome of events, but am only a part of shaping 
those outcomes.  this feels much more sustainable to me, and our own 
efforts at designing a CLT, and putting our CSA into a non-profit 
structure here fully embrace that, and i could very well be 'out of a 
job' if i do my job well, and the membership of both organizations 
take on the cooperative leadership responsibilities that the 
structures require

i understand that the relationships that are required to make these 
types of organizations succeed also bring some pain and conflict 
occasionally, but so what?  why be afraid of that?

sincerely,
kevin



> From: Scott Pittman [mailto:scott@permaculture.org]
> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 1:37 PM
> To: 'permaculture'
> Subject: RE: [permaculture] Democratic solutions to Permaculture conflicts?
>
> Just reading all of the emails generated about this subject leads me to
> believe that it is a critical piece of permaculture's growth that needs
> addressing.
>
> As far as democracy is concerned - it got us George Bush at least once and
> maybe twice.  It is also strange that everyone likes to use "democracy" to
> pile onto an idea that they usually don't want to work on or implement but
> enjoy talking to death.
>
> I formed a 501c3 in 1985 called the Permaculture Drylands Institute and
> attempted to hold a national pc meeting where we could discuss standards and
> how to create an organization that was responsive to graduates who needed
> help in establishing themselves as teachers and designers.  The meeting was
> attended by about 50 people, if my memory serves, and it was a cat and dog
> fight from day one. The main problem seemed to be that some members were
> perfectly content with an anarchical organization that incorporated
> everything, including the kitchen sink, into permaculture design and others
> were more traditional and didn't see a place for primal screaming in a
> design class.  That says nothing about primal screaming but more about the
> difference in apples and oranges.
>
> In 1997 Bill Mollison and I formed another 501c3 named the Permaculture
> Institute, it shared the name with the Australian institute and was meant to
> serve the same purpose i.e. issue certificates, diplomas, and coordinate any
> national programs that might develop out of the effort to create
> professional standards in the field of permaculture.  Our intention was that
> as we grew and developed as an organization we would attract the best
> examples of pc designers and teachers and that they in turn would contribute
> to the evolution of the institute.
>
> So far this has been a solo effort of me, my wife and some friends.  It has
> been funded by me and housed in my home.  I have run up the flag several
> times to get input from others and mostly have received criticism for having
> the audacity to try and form something without permission from everyone who
> ever heard of permaculture.  Personally if I waited for permission for
> everything that I do I would have ossified long ago.  To my mind if people
> have a better idea they should either manifest it or share it and see if it
> creates a positive response.  On the other hand if people disagree with what
> the Permaculture Institute is trying to do then they should with hold
> support and it will wither away.
>
> In the meantime I will continue to plod along with a few friends to create
> an organization that encourages and supports excellence in all things
> permaculture.  I do this because I have witnessed a slow deterioration of pc
> teaching and design and an increase in hyperbole over the twenty plus years
> that I have been involved.
>
> My desire for higher standards in permaculture is not motivated by some
> starry eyed idealism but by pragmatic self-interest.  I have spent all these
> years developing a reputation as a teacher and designer and every time
> someone teaches a half assed class or accepts payment for a crappy design it
> lessens my credibility as well as everyone else who is using the word
> permaculture to describe what they do.
>
> It is tempting sometimes to just drop the name permaculture and use another
> descriptive word like sustainable design to describe what I do, but if all
> of the good designers and teachers did that then the enormous amount of
> extraordinary work that has been accomplished around the world would be
> diminished and inherited by the mediocrity that would inevitable follow.
>
> For those who think they have a better idea or way then they should act on
> that conviction and create another structure that they think is more
> appropriate.  It is so easy to look over the fence and criticize your
> neighbor's garden but that criticism doesn't have much weight until he can
> see that you at least have a garden too.
>
> For now the permaculture institute will issue design certificates to
> institute approved teachers, and diplomas to those applicants that fulfill
> the requirements established for issuing diplomas.  We will maintain a list
> of institute approved teachers and designers that will be available to
> students and clients looking for guidance in choosing a teacher or designer.
> This is a beginning effort and anyone who wants to participate must be
> willing to contribute both time and energy in creating a better
> organization.  We understand that there will always be criticism and we will
> respond to such criticism as is appropriate but the ultimate valid criticism
> will be the creation of an organization that does it better than we do and
> that proves itself in the court of permaculture opinion and participation.
>
> I have never expected anyone to ask my permission to do anything and I don't
> intend to start asking others for permission unless I chose to do so.  I do
> hope that others will see a need for what we propose and will join us.
>
> Scott Pittman
> Director
> Permaculture Institute
> www.permaculture.org
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: kevin s [mailto:k.skvorak@verizon.net]
> > Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 1:45 PM
> > To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subject: [permaculture] Democratic solutions to Permacultures conflicts?
> >
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > I am wondering about the ongoing issues of certification standards,
> > professionalization, protocols, etc., and have a simple question that
> > i hope that those folks out there that have strong opinions will
> > respond seriously to.
> >
> > Scott, do you have any comments about this?:
> >
> > Are there not possible democratic solutions that resolve these open
> > questions, and do so in a way that does not further divide us all, or
> > place people in turf battles, or cause any of the other internal
> > problems that seem to plague the 'movement'?
> >
> > For instance, why cannot a US national (apologies for those fortunate
> > enough to reside outside of the evil empire) membership organization
> > deal with these issues?
> >
> > It is simple enough to set up a 5013c as a membership organization,
> > and then this organization can collect dues from every PDC grad that
> > wants to be involved, and then these members will direct the
> > organization thru an elected board- just like virtually every other
> > membership organization in the country.
> >
> >   If there is a needs for some written standards or another, the board
> > of directors can empower a working group of members to draft some
> > proposals to get voted on at the annual meeting. There are plenty of
> > examples of this like all the local organic certification standards
> > that were hammered out by local farmers membership organizations back
> > in the day (before they were naive enough to hand it over to the
> > feds.)
> >
> > Anyway, this all seems simple enough it is a wonder that it hasn't
> > happened already....?
> >
> > Is it because there is a lack of trust in democratic process and
> > organization in Permaculture circles? Are the individualistic trends
> > just too entrenched? (this is a serious question)
> >
> > Personally, I tend to trust and follow a democratic process much more
> > than i follow any doctrine handed down from above, and i suspect many
> > other folks are like me.
> >
> >   While i would be likely to follow and support any guidelines agreed
> > upon in an open democratic way, in an organization that i have input
> > into, i am am pretty unlikely to care much about any "protocols"
> > handed down from the self-appointed presidents of the various private
> > permaculture institutes, notwithstanding their wisdom, experience,
> > etc. (no offense meant here to anyone in particular, this is a
> > statement about my own feelings about process, about community, and
> > about the deeper needs of a healthy sustainable society- so again, it
> > is not! an attack on any particular personalities)
> >
> > As the NE region, that i am a part of, continues to grow and mature
> > as a community, i am hoping this is something that we will consider
> > seriously at some point, as we have some of the same needs regionally
> > that might be well met by a regional membership organization like
> > this.
> >
> > peas,
> > Kevin Skvorak
> > Regeneration CSA
> > High Falls NY