permaculture

[roxy6c <roxy6c@yahoo.com>]

The "domination" or colonization practice and memeplex
is a direct result of agriculture. Agriculture creates
a surplus which leads to a population increase, which
in turn requires annexation of new land to provide
more crops to feed the population. In an economic
system based on constant growth (like our current
one), you must expand or face collapse. Like Toby
said, populations that do not practice agriculture do
not have these practices and memes. Check out Jared
Diamond's "Guns Germs & Steel" for a theory of why
Eurasians were more successful at colonization.

Organized religion (Judao-Christian, Islam, Buddhist,
Confucian) works well as a control mechanism for
agriculture, by setting people up to expect a life of
toil and/or giving them a justification for expansion
through holy wars or converting heathens. The latter
worked especially well under Christianity, but farmers
stamped out most of the "pagans" long before the
Christians arrived. 

My personal opinion is that most New Age stuff out
there is not really land or community based, but more
about self-gratification, and so does not interest me
much. I've met too many newagers who've waxed poetic
about things like "the spirit of the bear", without
ever having encountered a real bear in their lives or
understanding the nature of the animal. If people are
out there strengthening their communities and
developing their own specific land-based
spiritualities, then more power to them. But I haven't
seen that very often.





--- Don Titmus <ujgs2@4dirs.com> wrote:

> Interesting!
> What culture or religion have not consumed another !
> Or better yet adopted 
> another for better  (or worse)
> Christians could not stamp out the "Pagans" and so
> adapted by blending one 
> faith "Holi-day" into another.
> 
> There are no patents on symbology...they are of the
> earth.
> 
> It doesn't matter if You believe in "Creation or
> Evolution" WE all come from 
> the "One"
> 
> We are All Cousins, We are All related
> 
> Don
> "Care of the Earth (the whole and all its beings),
> Care of the People, Share 
> the Resources"
> 
> Multi-Spiritual and proud to be a part of the whole.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Paul Cereghino" <paul.cereghino@comcast.net>
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 11:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture
> spirituality
> 
> 
> > And then there are groups of white people
> borrowing American Indian
> > religious motifs (after borrowing their land).  I
> personally find
> > elements of New Age subcultural beliefs as
> challanging to digest as
> > elements of evangelical christain beliefs.  And I
> would suggest that
> > christian practice can also feed the whole
> mind-body-spirit, just as a
> > 'New Age' practice, purporting to be whole, can
> fail to do so.
> > Two-edged swords everywhere you look.  In my gut,
> I don't see
> > incorporation of permaculture into sub-cultural
> cosmologies as beneficial.
> >
> > The 'New Age' subculture is looking for unitary
> philosophical phenomena
> > much like other evangelical faith-based
> communities.  And with slight
> > adaptation, permaculture can be presented as a
> unitary all encompassing
> > philosophy.  However I think this is a subcultural
> phenomena.  I would
> > suspect that this list does NOT reflect a cross
> cutting demographic
> > (referencing the esteemed mr. London's
> 'mainstream' comments earlier),
> > and that keeping Permaculture free and clear 'New
> Age' cultural
> > influences, is as critical to its expansion in
> America as building a
> > legitimate connection to the scientific community.
>  As MLK used to
> > say... keep your eye on the prize.
> >
> > Toby, I like your last question... the correlation
> between 'new age
> > flavor' and permaculture is important.
> >
> > Paul Cereghino
> >
> >>Toby and all,
> >>
> >>re Any other theories as to why Pc gatherings and
> courses often have a New
> >>Age flavor?
> >>
> >>We are of the Earth and cannot seperate ourselves
> from it and every thing
> >>around us. We seem to forget We (humans) are
> animals too !!! As PCers we
> >>design relationships, connections, and guilds into
> every part of our
> >>homesites. We therefore cannot seperate ourselves
> from Spirit (God/dess,
> >>Great Spirit, Creator et al).
> >>
> >>The "New Age" folks get this better than some of
> the other "religions" and
> >>being open to spirit they may adopt a "Findhorn"
> practice in the garden. 
> >>Or
> >>practice Feng Shui, or any other spiritual
> practice that Feeds the Whole -
> >>body. mind, Spirit.
> >>
> >>Don
> >>
> >>
> >>----- Original Message ----- 
> >>From: "Toby Hemenway" <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> >>To: "permaculture list"
> <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> >>Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 8:57 PM
> >>Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture
> spirituality (was: Message from
> >>thecurrent President)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>On 1/24/07 6:51 PM, "Tracie Boellner"  wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Too many points to respond to that really aren't
> relevant to this list,
> >>>>so I
> >>>>won't bore anyone with it.  My apologies for
> posting my original 
> >>>>response
> >>>>to
> >>>>the list.  It was a kneejerk reaction, and I
> should have kept it to
> >>>>myself.
> >>>>
> >>>>Still searching for the facts,
> >>>>Tracie in Michigan
> >>>>----- Original Message -----
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>Actually, I want to thank Tracy for posting her
> response. Mollison has
> >>>been
> >>>very emphatic about trying to build that "wall of
> separation" between
> >>>permaculture and any specific spiritual belief
> system. He, and a lot of
> >>>others (myself included) feel that connecting Pc
> with a particular set of
> >>>spiritual beliefs, while strengthening its appeal
> to that group, would
> >>>diminish its ability to be universally adopted by
> those with other
> >>>beliefs.
> >>>But there has gotten to be a fairly strong link
> between Pc and 
> >>>Earth-based
> >>>or New Age spirituality. I've met plenty of
> permaculture practitioners 
> >>>who
> >>>are devout Christian, Jewish, or other faiths,
> but rarely do they
> >>>explicitly
> >>>express permaculture in spiritual terms. But I've
> been to plenty of Pc
> >>>gatherings that are strongly pagan/wiccan/New
> Age. (full disclosure: I'm
> >>>pantheist/Buddhist myself, if I've gotta give a
> name to it). Starhawk's
> >>>Earth Activist Training, for example, is a Pc
> certification course that 
> >>>is
> >>>strongly imbued with Earth-based spirituality. I
> don't know of any
> >>>Christian
> >>>or Jewish PDCs. So why has Pc become linked with
> New Age beliefs?
> >>>
> >>>The light went on with Tracy's post. If you'll
> pardon my returning to my
> >>>horticulture/agriculture theme: Horticultural
> societies, according to
> >>>anthropologists, tend to view all of nature as
> imbued with spirit. For
> >>>them,
> >>>God is in the rocks, the water, the plants. In
> most cases, a different
> >>>(but
> >>>ultimately interlinked) spirit is responsible for
> each place, each
> >>>element,
> >>>each plant. Agricultural societies, on the other
> hand, tend to see spirit
> >>>as
> >>>coming from someplace out of this physical world,
> usually a sky god or 
> >>>set
> >>>of gods not connected with a particular place on
> Earth. Permaculture is 
> >>>an
> >>>attempt to create a contemporary horticultural
> society; at least that how
> >>>I'm thinking of it these days. So although it can
> appeal to a wide 
> >>>variety
> 
=== message truncated ===



 
____________________________________________________________________________________
We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love 
(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 


 
____________________________________________________________________________________
Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com.  Try it now.