permaculture

[lbsaltzman@aol.com]

" What's wrong with being a capitalist? Calling someone a "good little 
capitalist" is insulting and demeaning.  Teach them permaculture, farming and 
alternative energy and architecture and forget the stinking politics.
I expect these people already know more about communalism, sharing and 
cooperation than 49000 roiling, fevered "leftists". They have been living 
that way for centuries and using a common land ownership system."

 I strongly support the statement quoted above from this thread.  I think the 
old political battles of left vs. right capitalism vs. socialism are 
irrelevent.  Just as Permaculture looks at the natural landscape and attempts 
to design intelligently based on observed patterns for the physical world, we 
must look at the cultural patterns that humanity has developed over the 
millenia and draw on those patterns to find what works and what will allow 
people to have a decent and sustainable life. There will probably be elements 
from both capitalism and socialism that are adapted to the unique situations 
of various peoples living in various parts of the world.  Since our species 
first appeared over 100,000 years ago many cultural, political and economic 
patterns have been experimented with for creating functional human societies. 
 I believe we should observe all those systems and adopt whatever works for a 
specific situtation.
 
The new indigenous Bolivian government has been firm in rejecting the old 
battle between the political left and the political right. They rightfully 
feel they have been screwed by both sides. They are interested in simply 
controlling their own destinies and coming up with solutions that respect who 
they are as a people.
 
Permaculture attracted me because of its' pragmatism and flexibility in 
designing solutions. Whatever elements of cultural, political and economic 
systems that have been tried in the past and can be applied now to achieve 
the goals of letting people live a prosperous and sustainable life are worth 
incorporating.  Whether those elements come from a socialist, capitalist 
paradigm are pretty irrelevent to me.  
 
I am reminded of an argument when a native plant purist was upset at the 
introduction of an exotic species in a situation when people were having 
trouble feeding themselves. To tell starving people they can't improve their 
lot with small scale capitalism is pretty insensitive and so would be telling 
them they can't improve their lot with small scale socialism if that is what 
worked
 
Larry Saltzman
 
-----Original Message-----
From: lfl@intrex.net
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 8:26 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] 'celebrating' Grameen, Nobel, and capitalism


kevin s wrote:

> there is so much change under way in the world, good and bad.  i have 
> been involved a lot lately with solidarity work for oaxaca where the 

Chiapas
Guatemala
in the past: Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua
Colombia
Burma
Tibet

people there are facing similar problems

Chile finally flushed its political toilet with the passing of Pinochet

> old anticapitalist movement in mexico is being repressed in a new 

Why is it called an anticapitalist movement? Why do the 
leftists/socialists/marxists/communists 
have
to inject their political ideology into a stuggle of people in the throes of 
trying to survive?
This only gives the thugs and death squads an opportunity to breed snitches 
to 
turn in folks labeled
communist, same old scenario repeated over and over. Just call it a 
permaculture-based survival movement and let it go 
at that. Help these people learn to farm sustainably, build durable housing, 
generate their own power and utilize
appropriate technology resources. Don't make it easy for the thugs to villify 
and label those they are trying to 
repress. Time to wake up and smell, and drink, a good cup of coffee. Their 
goals 
must be accomplished using peaceful means.

> dirty war.  this is relevent - ( the new dirty war fueled by the same 
> old US corporate interests)- because the struggle there is a 
> representation of community self empowerment, using traditional 
> indigenous models of political organizing and mutual aid,

The mainstream media is dominated by corporate interests
so people must be shown the path to alternate news and information resources.
At one time there was interest in this list in creating an online 
permaculture 
relational database,
showing relationships between elements in a permaculture system. I had hoped 
that this would become a global project
that would offer the opportunity for people to enter data from their own 
bioregion for the benefit of others in that
part of the world and those elsewhere interested in learning from their work. 
Since that project seems to have 
e-vaporated maybe it is time to start a new online permaculture information 
resource, not using databases but
wikis, blogs, websites, webforums, distributed systems, linked components and 
similar software tools. Anyone interested 
in participating in the startup of something like this?


> i mean, there are so many ways for poor people to re-gain self 
> empowerment, is really becoming 'good little capitalists'  (with or 

What's wrong with being a capitalist? Calling someone a "good little 
capitalist" 
is insulting and demeaning.
Teach them permaculture, farming and alternative energy and architecture and 
forget the stinking politics.
I expect these people already know more about communalism, sharing and 
cooperation than 49000 roiling, fevered
"leftists". They have been living that way for centuries and using a common 
land 
ownership system.

>   traditional community structures are broken all over the world-and 
> those that are left are resisting all over the world- and it is 
> capitalism (colonialism,white supremacy, consumerism etc) that has 
> broken them.
> 
> imho, in terms of ethics-  zapatismo has a lot more in common with 
> permaculture than the Grameen bank does. 

Then enter into dialog with them and help them bring permaculture into their 
lives.

>   i do have hope for permaculture as part of the solution for 
> privileged industrialized people and those 'down below' alike.    but 
> i'm sorry i don't have hope for a permaculture 'movement' that 
> indentifies more with 'lifestyle' liberal green consumerism, than it 
> does with genuine social justice, local autonomy, and the like.  (i'm 
> not saying it does-but it feels that way at times)

Its all the same, an urban-surburban version, a farm version, a version for 
the 
poor
who need help surviving.

LL
-- 
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
Venaura Farm
lfl@intrex.net
info@market-farming.com
IM: lawrence.london@pandion.be & lfl@amber.org.uk
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