permaculture

["Forest Garden" <forestgarden@gvtc.com>]

Hi Neils,

Thank you for your response.  I currently use living mulches (white and red
clovers) in areas directly around the tree in areas I have hand removed the
bermuda grass.  I tried planting a variety of legumes directly into the
grasses - cow peas, winter peas, vetches, clovers, etc. as appropriate for
each season.  The legumes could not compete with the grasses.  I was hoping
the cow peas would at least shade them out some, but no.  I've also been
trying to move the soil micro-biology towards more fungually based in an
attempt to weaken the hold of the grasses.

It is a continual effort to keep the bermuda clear in the rings around each
tree that I have.  In addition to simply keeping back the grasses from the
existing inner rings, I want to expand those rings as the tree roots will be
wanting to spread out further as the trees get older.  I thought to lay out
the carpet in a ring outside of the inner ring.  The carpet would weaken the
grass so the hand removeal would be easier.  The only thing I've found that
stops the grass is blocking from light over a long period of time.  I've
tried almost everyhting else - including 20% vinegar in the middle of a two
month drought.  The grass thanked me for the moisture and kept right on not
even noticing the acidity...

Black or clear plastic does work somewhat but needs a lot of rocks and logs
to keep it held down.  Stiff carpet would be easiest to use and would stay
in place in a windy situation.

Oddly enough, thick layers of cardboard and hay for mulch really didn't work
that well.  The grass grew right through it, and very quickly.

I don't intend to keep the carpet there forever - only for 6 to 9 months
which would be long enough to really retard the grass.  The plan is that I
could retard the grass enough to be able to remove it easily.  Then I would
plant with living mulches, and hopefully expand the rings outer further.

If you've never experienced it - you have no idea how tenacious bermuda
grass is!  I absolutely love it in the pastures since it is such a great
cover and holds the soils in so well even with heavy grazing.  But in the
garden or orchad.... yikes.

- Marjory


----- Original Message -----
From: "Niels" <mudguard@gmail.com>
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] using old carpet


> HI Margory,
>
> I have no first hand XP but have given the use of carpet and other
> light-excluding mulches much thought.
> First I would say that within a certain context they will be effective.
> My proposed example is as a method for changing land use or "reclaiming"
> land from pasture etc. In other words: pioneering using legume cover
crops.
> "setting-back" the grasses through light-exclusion then seeding into the
> remnant sod/weed cover.
>
> Firstly I should say that this approach (method if you like) is only
> suitable for those that beleive in cover crops and living mulches. Which
> personally I am, very much.
> There are many discourses for their use or not. I feel Fukuoka's to be the
> most convincing.
> Perhaps discussion of the efficacy cover crops could be done in another
> thread?
> I am certainly up for a bit of critisism, especially by those who have
> experimented with these methods.
>
> For the moment, however, my opinions and theories are not based on
> experience.
> For that reason there is still one major question that I have yet to find
> much discuccion on. It is the issue of germination rates of food crops
> seeded into living mulch (cover crop).
> Transplanting would largely solve these issues but this is a higher input
> strategy than direct seeding.
> Also one might be able to repeat the temporary carpet mulch method
described
> below to assist establishment of food crops?
>
> Anyway here is the method.
>
> Establishing a Cover Crop/Living Mulch
> Method
> Step one Lay Mulch
> early as poss. in the autumn/winter lay down the carpet/plastic etc. Still
> now is probably fine.
> As an additional step here, depending on the nature of the ground, mow (or
> scythe) as close as possible before putting down mulch.
>
> Step two: monitor
>  condition of vegetation under mulch (carpet etc) by rolling it up
> periodically.
>
> Step three: Roll-back the carpet and seed
> white clover into the remnant sod/weed cover. In other words start to
> establish a leguminous living mulch/cover crop. other species to add to a
> mix, in small quantities would be: early vetch (eg Lana woolypod) or sweet
> clover (meliltus alba).
> Hopefully the carpet/mulch has been down a few months before spring.
> If not perhaps delay this step for a month or so. Exact timing is not so
> important, I feel, obviously the longer the better and even more when it
> gets warmer. At this time decomposition will speed dramatically and it is
> this time when the grass would be growing-back and regenerating. So if it
is
> covered with a mulch (carpet etc) into the spring, as well as
winter/autumn
> it will die-back even more. Again monitoring is what is needed more than
> anything.
> Then as the days lengthen/warm, the longer the better, without cutting
into
> the growing season too much, sow your living mulch. Though that said this
is
> a 1st-season/pioneering phase so with any luck this is a one-off task and
as
> such perhaps should be given priority.
>
> Step four: Replace Carpet
> roll back the carpet/mulch, with the seeds underneath. And having watered
if
> the ground is very dry.
>
> Step Five: Monitoring
> lift the mulch every week, or few days depending on temp and rainfall, to
> check on germination. If no rainfall you might wish to water the bed.
>
> Step Six: Remove Mulch
> When there seems to be sufficient establishment of the cover crop seeds,
ie
> when they are ready to start photosynthesizing, remove carpet.
> This I guess is a pretty important stage since the seedlings will have
been
> used to a pretty easy life under the mulch. The lack of light not being a
> major inhibition to germination.
> To aid the seedlig development at this time it might be worth adding a
light
> covering of mulch (biomass, compost etc.)
> The seedlings shouldn't have difficulty pushing through. This I have
tested
> and had good results for mustard sown under well-rotted leaf mulch.
> NB Be careful at this point that you don't put a mulch that is too
"alive".
> By that I mean full of bugs, insects, worms etc. Because the birds will
come
> down and stir it all up to feed off this macrofauna and as a result put
pay
> to your developing seedlings.
> I guess if compost/leaf mulch was your only choice spread it out first
some
> where else.
> In fact neater still would be to spread your loose mulch on top of the
> carpet after seeding. Then you can just turn the carpet over when you
rmove
> it.
>
> Step seven: 1st New Cut (possibly the only) and Over seeding
> I am not sure of timing here really but I guess you will be into
mid-spring
> here at least.
> Expect to have some regrowth of grasses and other weeds.
> You will need to mow (cut-back) this higher growth at least once in this
> phase.
> This is where the clover, particularly the wild/Kent variety, comes into
its
> own. As it is so low-growing you can mow the top-growth ("weeds") very
close
> and not do it too much damage.
> As well as that you can freely walk across a pure-stand of clover with
> minimal compaction issues or damage to the clover itself.
> After a cut I would overseed some more white clover, just to reinforce
> establishment.
>
> Step eight: 2nd New Cut (as step seven) -only if significant regrowth!
> This is necesary according the amount of regrowth since your last cut.
> If there is little regrowth there is no need for a cut, the clover will go
> on to establish itself.
>
> Notes to this method.
>
> 1/ It is important to say that clover will establish in a pasture by
itself.
> The use of the mulch, cutting and over seeding just speed this process,
> quite significantly I beleive.
> To encourage clover in pasture one would use repeated close mowing or
tight
> grazing (overstocking).
> 2/Choice of cover crops
> I fancy the following covers according to use:
>
> Wild white clover for veg/cereal growing. Other names: Kent white clover,
> small-leaf white clover.
>    this is quite an expensive white clover so perhaps a standard white
will
> do but the advantage of this variety is that it is so low growing.
> This makes it suitable for two particular reasons, among others:
> -Grass exclusion in the pioneering phase since it will be much less
affected
> by mowing
> -will compete less (spatially) with crop interplants.
>
> Ladino clover/large-leaved white for orchards/tree ground cover.
>
> Sweet clover for mulch, wind-breaking and soil conditioning.
> 1.Could be substituted for white clover for 1st season pioneering if you
> didn't want to grow a food crop in the same bed immediately.
> With repeated cuttings it will provide alot of mulch as well as fix much N
> and improve soil structure.
> Will set seed in its second year, from a spring sowing, usually.
> Cut it at ground height to kill it.
> 2. Low density As white clover intercrop. Will provide some of the above
> benefits in-bed.
> A good introduced weed for the veg patch.
>
> Lana vetch (or other vetches more common in UK)
> As above for sweet clover.
> Except it is an early, especially Lana. Should set seed April-May.
> http://www.sarep.ucdavis.edu/cgi-bin/CCrop.exe/show_crop_43
> So if you don't want it reappearing it should be killed before then.
> However I am quite happy to have it as an, unencouraged, in-bed
> legume/greenmanure/weed.
>
> Hope this is not too convoluted.
> Or apocraful.
>
> Regards,
> N*
>
> nocompost.blogspot.com
> http://del.icio.us/entrailer
>
>
> On 05/01/06, Forest Garden <forestgarden@gvtc.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Everyone,
> >
> > Has anyone got experience using old carpet to supress grass?  Does the
> > carpet break down into horrific chemicals I wish I didn't ever know
about?
> >
> > I suppose old wool carpets wouldn't do that, but where would  there be a
> > source for old wool carpets.
> >
> > Any help is greatly appreciated.
> >
> > Marjory
> >
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