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  • From: Claude William Genest <genest@pivot.net>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Grey water systems
  • Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:49:36 -0500

Yes I do.

Claude

On Thursday, February 17, 2005, at 05:52 PM, Cochran, Jason wrote:

Does anyone have any knowledge on how to build a grey water filter system
using the most basic and appropiate technology possible?

Thanks


-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org]
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 12:02 PM
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: permaculture Digest, Vol 25, Issue 10


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Today's Topics:

1. Re: trees for ponds.... (Rich Blaha)
2. Re: Re: trees & ponds (Keith Johnson)
3. (Fwd) ETC Group: News: Canadian Gov. Pushes Terminator at UN
M (Cricket Rakita)
4. Re: Re: trees & ponds (Paul Wheaton)
5. Re: Re: trees for ponds.... (Paul Wheaton)
6. Re: Re: trees for ponds.... (Dylan Ford)
7. Re: Re: trees for ponds.... (Paul Wheaton)
8. Re: Re: trees for ponds.... (Keith Johnson)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 10:45:51 -0800
From: "Rich Blaha" <rich@mossbackfarm.com>
Subject: [permaculture] Re: trees for ponds....
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <20050207184551.6160.qmail@server263.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


[sorry about the aborted previous post....enter is a dangerous key. post
continues below]

-setting up a curtain wall for the water to fall into the pond can be great
if it's very sturdy...again, my current pond was dug out by a previous
owner...this created a headcut which ran >800ft upstream, silting the pond
and lowering the groundwater table. See prev post re: cursing of names.

I think that's all .... sounds fun, Paul!

Rich
Mossback Farm
www.mossbackfarm.com


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 14:05:11 -0500
From: Keith Johnson <keithdj@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Re: trees & ponds
To: Rich Blaha <rich@mossbackfarm.com>, permaculture
<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <4207BBE7.2080300@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

Rich,
Apparently when you get your mail from the list you get them not one at
a time, but rather as a large group of emails. When you simply reply
without deleting all of that we all end up getting an email that is
quite long, in this case 27 K, not a large email but multiplied to
everyone adds up to a fair bit of bandwidth. Pehaps some judicious
pruning would help relieve us all of redundant and excessive mail
downloading. Especially those with 24 Kbps modems need to be accounted
for. On top of that, I didn't even find your response in the document.
thanks,
Keith

Rich Blaha wrote:

Some thoughts on Paul's plan and the responses....







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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 14:27:47 -0500
From: "Cricket Rakita" <cricket@savingourseed.org>
Subject: [permaculture] (Fwd) ETC Group: News: Canadian Gov. Pushes
Terminator at UN M
To: "'permaculture'" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <E1CyEY2-0000e4-00@pop-a065d05.pas.sa.earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

ETC Group News Release
7 February 2005
www.etcgroup.org

Canadian Government to Unleash Terminator Bombshell at UN Meeting:
All-out push for commercialization of Sterile Seed Technology

A confidential document leaked today to ETC Group reveals that the Canadian
government, at a United Nations meeting in Bangkok (Feb 7-11), will attempt
to overturn an international moratorium on genetic seed sterilization
technology (known universally as Terminator). Even worse, the Canadian
government has instructed its negotiators to "block consensus" on any other
option.

"Canada is about to launch a devastating kick in the stomach to the world's
most vulnerable farmers - the 1.4 billion people who depend on farm saved
seed," said ETC Group Executive Director Pat Mooney speaking from Ottawa.
"The Canadian government is doing the dirty work for the multinational gene
giants and the US government. Even Monsanto wasn't prepared to be this
upfront and nasty. Canada is betraying Farmers'
Rights and food sovereignty everywhere."

Terminator technology was first developed by the US government and the seed
industry to prevent farmers from re-planting saved seed and is considered
the most controversial and immoral agricultural application of genetic
engineering so far. When first made public in 1998, "suicide seeds"
triggered an avalanche of public opposition, forcing Monsanto to abandon the
technology and prompting the UN Convention on Biological Diversity (CBD) to
impose a de facto moratorium on its further development. According to the
leaked instructions to Canadian negotiators at SBSTTA 10 (a scientific
advisory body to the CBD), Canada will insist on Wednesday (9 Feb.) that
governments accept the field testing and commercialization of Terminator
varieties (referred to as GURTS -- Genetic Use Restriction Technologies).
Canada will also attack an official UN report, prepared by an international
expert group, which is critical of the potential impacts of Terminator seeds
on small farmers and Indigenous Peoples. In stark contrast to Canada's
position, the expert report recommends that governments seek prohibitions on
the technology.

In Bangkok, civil society and Indigenous Peoples are calling on the Canadian
government to abandon its endorsement of Terminator and to join with other
governments to prohibit the technology once and for all. Many African and
Asian governments have called for Terminator to be banned and the European
Union has also been supportive of the existing moratorium.

"It is outrageous that Canada is backing an anti-farmer technology and
shameful that it will 'block consensus' on any other outcome.
Governments from around the world must not accept this bullying tactic,"
says ETC Group's Hope Shand from the negotiations in Bangkok.
"If Canada blocks decision-making on this issue, the moratorium will be in
jeopardy and terminator seeds will be commercialized ending up in the fields
of small farmers."

The full leaked text of the Canadian government's instructions to its
negotiators on Terminator/GURTS follows.

Hope Shand and Jim Thomas of ETC Group can be contacted at SBSTTA
negotiations in Bangkok on cell phone +44 (0) 7752 106806 or by email
jim@etcgroup.org or hope@etcgroup.org

Pat Mooney (in Ottawa) +1 (613) 241-2267 etc@etcgroup.org

Kathy Jo Wetter (USA) +1 (919) 960-5223 kjo@etcgroup.org

The Head of the Canadian Delegation in Bangkok is Robert McLean,
Environment Canada - Robert.Mclean@ec.gc.ca tel +1 (819) 997-1303



"Advice on the report of the Ad Hoc Technical Expert Group on Genetic Use
Restriction Technologies (GURTS);

Canada has major reservations regarding the recommendations in the AHTEG
report. Canada notes that the experts were unable to reach consensus and
that while this is recognized in para. 15 of the report, this should have
been made clear in the recommendation section of the report. Unfortunately,
the report leaves the impression that consensus was achieved on all of the
recommendations when this was clearly not case and in particular in terms of
recommendation (b) which reads as follows, "In view of the current lack of
data, recommends that Parties and other Governments consider the development
of regulatory frameworks not to approve GURTs for field-testing and
commercial use."

Canada will suggest that the document clearly indicate in the Annex that
there is no consensus on for the recommendations. Alternatively, the AHTEG
report can be referred to as the "Chairs' report". Canada also believes that
the AHTEG report contains scientific inaccuracies and a lack of balance in
terms of reflecting both potential positive and negative impacts of this
technology, and these issues should be addressed before the report is
further distributed. We believe that it would be beneficial for Parties and
other governments to submit comments to the Executive Secretary/CHM to
represent national views to improve the accuracy of the document, and that
these be made available to both the 8j working group and COP.

Additionally, Canada will propose that SBSTTA adopt a recommendation for
decision at COP8 based on the revised wording of recommendation "b"
below and will propose this recommendation be incorporated for
consideration at the 8j meeting:

NEW WORDING for recommendation b) of AHTEG report

(b) In view of the current lack of data, recommend that Parties and other
Governments consider the development of domestic regulatory frameworks TO
ALLOW FOR THE EVALUATION OF NOVEL VARIETIES, INCLUDING THOSE WITH GURTS, FOR
FIELD TESTING AND COMMERCIAL USE BASED ON APPROPRIATE SCIENCE-BASED
ENVIRONMENTAL RISK/SAFETY ASSESSMENTS.

In Canada's opinion the revised wording we are suggesting, strengthens the
recommendation and provides for a strong scientific assessment of risk.

If we are unsuccessful in obtaining these additions (indication that
recommendations in the AHTEG report were not based on consensus OR agreement
to have national views submitted) AND changes to recommendation "B" --or any
other outcome which clearly addresses our concern over a defacto moratorium
on GURTS-- Canada is prepared to block consensus on this issue."

_______________________________________________
ETC Group mailing list
http://lists.etcgroup.org/mailman/listinfo/etcgroup

------- End of forwarded message -------

Cricket Rakita
The Save Our Seed Project Coordinator
Carolina Farm Stewardship Association
49 Circle D Dr.
Colbert, GA 30628
home/work: (706) 788-0017
fax: (706) 788-0071
cell: (706) 614-1451
web: http://www.savingourseed.org
email: cricket@savingourseed.org




------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:48:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Paul Wheaton <paul@richsoil.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Re: trees & ponds
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <20050207194813.87462.qmail@web13821.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

-If you want the pond to outlive you, definitely keep the trees off of it.


By "it", do you mean the dam? Or do you mean the whole pond?

-I'm only passingly familiar with your area, but I bet your summers are
pretty
hot...

They can get hot. 50 miles west of here is quite desert-ish. But we are on
a mountain,
in a wee valley. So it's a little cooler and wetter than Spokane.

.unless you have a very deep pond, and/or good flow-through in the dry
months,

We're shooting for depths of at least 12 feet. And we're not going to put
fish in any
pond that doesn't get at least 1gpm of flow throughout the summer and that
flow is
dribbled into the pond from a height of at least six feet.

water temperature, not pond productivity, is going to be your limiting
factor for
trout. Shade, whether from docks, trees, or floating gardens, will
probably be
important

That's what I'm thinking too.

By "floating garden" I keep imagining something like peat bogs: a layer of
organic
matter floating on the water with a variety of plant life. Is this what you
are
thinking?

- [woodsjay said] Also run the incoming water (if there is an appropriate
grade) into the pond with a wide mouthed flume so that the
water falls as a curtain from a height. This will both cool
and oxygenate the water both of which the trout need.

This is the plan.




------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:50:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Paul Wheaton <paul@richsoil.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Re: trees for ponds....
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <20050207195028.70780.qmail@web13804.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

-setting up a curtain wall for the water to fall into the pond can be
great if it's
very sturdy...again, my current pond was dug out by a previous
owner...this created a
headcut which ran >800ft upstream, silting the pond and lowering the
groundwater table.
See prev post re: cursing of names.

Not sure I follow this.

Somebody dug a pond that impacted something upsteam?




------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 20:22:55 -0500
From: "Dylan Ford" <dford@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Re: trees for ponds....
To: <paul@richsoil.com>, "permaculture"
<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <004301c50d7e$db738ab0$996e8bd1@dylanwmvi3setm>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Paul - In reference to the use of willows around ponds, I've been told that
a problem with them is the amount of seasonal shedding of twigs.dylan





Dylan Ford is the author of the proposal at www.ideaforpresident.com , a
website devoted to an idea that could provide an avenue to address pollution
issues, food safety, social justice, prison reform and healthcare.




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------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 17:59:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Paul Wheaton <paul@richsoil.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Re: trees for ponds....
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <20050208015910.41664.qmail@web13810.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Paul - In reference to the use of willows around ponds, I've been told
that
a problem with them is the amount of seasonal shedding of twigs.dylan

??? So they dump loads of twigs? I suppose they float ... I take it that
people see
that as a problem because it plugs the outlet?



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 01:13:20 -0500
From: Keith Johnson <keithdj@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Re: trees for ponds....
To: paul@richsoil.com, permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <42085880.1030909@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

If it dumps dead twigs, no problem. If it drops green twigs, then each
one that falls into the pond can root and make a new tree. I once used
a few yards of freshly chipped willow branches in a client's landscape
in dry California and we ended up removing baby willows by the hundreds
a few months later. Squirrels often prune twigs out of trees as do some
birds. Most species its not an issue. Willows.....watch out. And I love
willows.
K

Paul Wheaton wrote:

Paul - In reference to the use of willows around ponds, I've been told
that
a problem with them is the amount of seasonal shedding of twigs.dylan



??? So they dump loads of twigs? I suppose they float ... I take it that
people see
that as a problem because it plugs the outlet?

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--
Keith Johnson
Permaculture Activist Magazine
PO Box 1209
Black Mountain, NC 28711
(828)669-6336

also Patterns for Abundance Design & Consulting
Culture's Edge at Earthaven Ecovillage
http://www.permacultureactivist.net
http://www.earthaven.org
http://www.bioregionalcongress.org


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