permaculture

[Stephanie Gerson <sgerson@stanfordalumni.org>]

For those of you interested in discussing guilds, I suggest you check out 
the Permaculture Information Web (PIW) - an emerging database of 
information about ecological relationships for purposes of guild design.  
Please join the PIW listserv at:

http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/piw

We are in the process of deciding how to organize information about 
plants and ecological relationships in an application-oriented way, and 
your comments would be very relevant!

Thank you,
*Stephanie


  

------ Original Message ------
Received: 05:24 PM PST, 02/15/2005
From: permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: permaculture Digest, Vol 25, Issue 17

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: stove-fuel emmissions (Toby Hemenway)
   2. Permaculture Institute of the Northeast (Joshua Dolan)
   3. Re: Black Walnut Guild (woodsjay@cox.net)
   4. Black Walnut Guild (robscott@freeshell.org)
   5. Black Walnut Guild (Roxann Phillips)
   6. Re: Black Walnut Guild (Keith Johnson)
   7. Re: Persimmon Guild (Robyn Williamson)
   8. Re: Persimmon Guild (Keith Johnson)
   9. RE: Persimmon Guild (Cricket Rakita)
  10. Re: Persimmon Guild (Keith Johnson)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:28:20 -0800
From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] stove-fuel emmissions
To: permaculture list <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <BE377134.3A2B%toby@patternliteracy.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

On 2/15/05 3:02 AM, "david cuthbertson" <scienceinthegreen@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

> Hi,
> My father is a retired combustion engineer with
> potential access to emissions analysis equipment

David: Aprovecho Research Center in Cottage Grove, OR, 
(www.aprovecho.net)
has developed several low-emission, high efficiency stove designs that 
they
install in much of the less-developed world. They work with the UN and 
other
NGOs. Wood, (and only very occasionally gasoline or diesel) is pretty 
much
the only fuel that is affordable for these people.  Check with Aprovecho, 
as
they've done a huge amount of this work already, both culturally and
technically, and know combustion science pretty well.

Toby
www.patternliteracy.com




------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:45:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Joshua Dolan <rainbowwarrior14874@yahoo.com>
Subject: [permaculture] Permaculture Institute of the Northeast
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <20050215174530.35980.qmail@web60510.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Does anyone out there know anything about where this
ida thread is headed?  I heard through the grapevine
that there was some discussion about this at a recent
gathering in Massachusets.  I would like to bring this
discussion out into the public forum, and also suggest
that Ithaca, NY is a great central location where we
might meet, perhaps sometime this summer (JULY?) and
discuss this idea, share our knowlege, and forge
tighter bonds between us northeastern permies.

Joshua Dolan
Finger Lakes Permaculture Network
115 the Commons
Ithaca, NY 14850 

__________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:15:40 -0500
From: <woodsjay@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Black Walnut Guild
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
        <20050215201539.GZKG17120.lakermmtao11.cox.net@smtp.east.cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I can verify that tomatilloes grow well. Golden currants 
(Ribes aureus) (Yellow blooms and black fruit) also do 
well. Egyptian walking onions and Mulberries are others 
that are doing well. Apricots, Peaches and Saskatoons are 
not being interfered with.  
>  
> From: Keith Johnson <keithdj@mindspring.com> 
> Date: 2005/02/14 Mon PM 10:25:43 EST 
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> 
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Persimmon Guild 
>  
> Black walnuts, as I'm sure you've learned, are fairly 
challenging  
> species to guild with. Many small fruits seem to thrive 
amongst them.  
> I've even found that one solanaceae  (tomatillo) can 
actually grow under  
> them. I'd like to hear more about your successes and 
failures. 
>  
>  



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 21:02:25 +0000 (UTC)
From: "robscott@freeshell.org" <robscott@freeshell.org>
Subject: [permaculture] Black Walnut Guild
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.61.0502152051070.17878@sdf.lonestar.org>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed


In response to the disparaging comments about Black Walnut, I'm posting 
my 
research on Black Walnut ecology and companion planting. A list of 
productive species for Black Walnut understory appears at the bottom.

Rob Scott
Urbana Permaculture Project
Urbana, IL

Black Walnuts (Juglans nigra) and Hackberry (Celtis occidentalis) occur 
together naturally, both are reported to be allelopathic, for separate 
but 
overlapping sets of plants. In warmer climates, the closely related 
Sugarberry (Celtis laevigata) would be a more fruitful associate.

Why is Black Walnut toxic?

Black Walnuts produce a toxin called "juglone" in all parts of the tree. 
It is an antirespiratory compound with a phenolic ring. It probably 
evolved to deter insect pests, not plants or humans. Fishermen have used 
ground up walnut hulls to attract fish to the surface of the water; the 
juglone slows fish respiration and the fish come to the surface to 
breathe. Juglone in leaf litter degrades in about 2 days, so raked up 
leaf 
mulch is not toxic. Walnut tree roots constantly release juglone, and 
this 
is why nearby plants often die.

What companion plants help Black Walnut grow?

Control experiments in Illinois found that Autumn Olive (Elaeagnus sp.) 
work better as a symbiont for promoting Black Walnut growth than Black 
Locust (Robinia pseudoacacia). Both fix nitrogen, but the Autumn Olive 
doesn't compete with the Black Walnut as much and seems to reduce deer 
browse. The net effect of Black Locust was to set back Black Walnut by 
shading. Degraded sites will yield different results as Black Locust 
better restores depleted soils.

What naturally grows under Black Walnut?

Redbud (Cercis canadensis), Pawpaw (Asimina triloba), and Spicebush 
(Calycanthus occidentalis) grow as understory shrubs under Black Walnut 
naturally in Central Illinois. Ground level  wildflowers are no less 
abundant under Black Walnuts than in other natural forest communities.

Does Black Walnut create a lot of shade?

Black Walnuts let through a lot of sunlight. Shade is "dappled" even 
after 
leaves have fully emerged. Bud break in Black Walnut occurs in late 
spring, allowing sun penetration to the forest floor for a few months 
before leafing out. A rust fungus commonly causes anthracnose in Black 
Walnut leading to early leaf-drop and dormancy in the fall, adding 
another 
month of full sun penetration. Understory shrubs have been shown to 
reduce 
anthracnose infection by breaking the ground-to-leaf cycle.

What productive plants can grow under Black Walnut?

(in no particular order)
American Black Currant - Ribes americanum
European Currant - Ribes nigra, Ribes rubrum, Ribes alba
Missouri Gooseberry - Ribes missouriensis
American Elderberry - Sambucus canadensis
Black Raspberry - Rubus ideaus
Siberian Pea Shrub - Caragana arboescens
Mulberries - Morus nigra, Morus alba
Alpine Strawberries - Fragaria vesca
Goldenseal - Hydrastis canadensis
Wild Ginger - Asarum canadense
Pawpaw - Asimina triloba
Redbud - Cercis canadensis - legume
Bamboo - Phyllostachys spp.
"Rose of Sharon" Hibiscus - Hibiscus Syriacus
Lamb's Quarters - Chenopodium alba
Catnip - Nepata cataria
Daylily - Hemerocallis sp
Sunchokes - Helianthus tuberosa

This is a good way to control the spread of sunchokes, and the tubers are 
of fine size and quality even when shade grown. Dandelions, Violets and 
Creeping Charlie have also grown naturally in Illinois Black Walnut 
Guilds. Toby Hemenway mentions Woldberry (Lycium spp) in Gaia's Garden 
for 
growing near Walnut, but it doesn't grow well in Illinois.


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:15:27 -0600
From: "Roxann Phillips" <roxann@ancientearthwisdom.com>
Subject: [permaculture] Black Walnut Guild
To: "'permaculture'" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <001501c513b4$3c691d90$0300a8c0@rd973na>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"

Lisa, if you have quite a bit of shade and rich earth underneath,
ginseng does well with black walnut.

Roxann, soon to be in NW AR




------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:27:50 -0500
From: Keith Johnson <keithdj@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Black Walnut Guild
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <42128576.1040108@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

I haven't heard any disparaging words about black walnuts except for the 
word challenging (for some species). I have grown all the species Rob 
suggests and others besides and concur with his observations. Clovers 
(white especially) and field peas (a great winter salad crop) did well 
under them as did carrots, parsley, celery, and fennel (which suggests 
that other umbels ought to be tried). The alliums work just fine and 
because walnuts are late to leaf out, the sunshine that is available 
until leaf formation provides great opportunity to grow lots of salad 
type greens, lettuces, brassicas, spinach, etc. While I'm on the subject 
of greens I want to take a moment to praise mache or corn salad. I 
planted it a couple years ago and now it is my favorite self sowing 
winter salad "weed". It has tolerated temps in the low single digits and 
thrived. In a hoophouse it does even better and forms beautiful fat 8 in 
diameter rosettes.
Keith Johnson

robscott@freeshell.org wrote:

>
> In response to the disparaging comments about Black Walnut, I'm 
> posting my research on Black Walnut ecology and companion planting. A 
> list of productive species for Black Walnut understory appears at the 
> bottom.
>
> Rob Scott


-- 
Keith Johnson
Permaculture Activist Magazine
PO Box 1209
Black Mountain, NC 28711
(828)669-6336

also Patterns for Abundance Design & Consulting
Culture's Edge at Earthaven Ecovillage
http://www.permacultureactivist.net
http://www.earthaven.org
http://www.bioregionalcongress.org





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------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:08:51 +1100
From: Robyn Williamson <rz.williamson@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Persimmon Guild
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <F02B6CD2-7FAE-11D9-8B4E-0030657170AA@optusnet.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

The "recipe" I use for plant guilds, and I have communicated this to 
JB, is the following:

Firstly stack your plants for vertical edge according to height and 
width, i.e. use tree(s) together with shrub(s), vine(s), ground 
cover(s), grass(es)/cereal(s) and bulbs or tubers underground.  This 
will enable a large amount of food in a small space.

Secondly, get to know (not easy because they are in Latin or Greek and 
keep changing) or search through the plant families to choose a species 
that does well in your area.  e.g. all legumes (family Leguminosae/now 
called Fabaceae) fix atmospheric nitrogen in the form of nodules on 
their roots which becomes available in the soil for use by other plants 
and therefore play an important part in any guild.  Garlic, onions, 
chives etc. all belong to the family Alliaceae (I think they have been 
recently re-classified from the Liliaceae) and help to deter pests.  
The Umbelliferae family (has a new name I can't remember) has flower 
heads that are shaped like little umbrellas, e.g. dill, parsley, 
carrots, they attract "carnivorous" beneficials who can easily stand on 
the umbels with their long legs and "harvest" smaller insects for 
breakfast.  Nettle and comfrey are good companions for anything.  A 
book about companion planting is a good idea, but be aware that myths 
and legends abound on this topic.  According to Bill Mollison, trees 
will eventually overcome grasses and a deciduous tree will provide all 
the mulch you will ever need in situ, i.e. you won't have to cart it.

Keith is right however, your own observations are critical in the 
construction of guilds, have a look around other gardens in your area 
and see what is doing well.  Talk to other gardeners in your local area 
to help you get started.

Robyn

On Tuesday, February 15, 2005, at 11:50 am, Keith Johnson wrote:

> This guild business is consistently overcomplicated in many folks 
> minds who seem to think it has hard and fast rules when it is really 
> only a young science suggesting a rough outline to create a 
> cooperative polyculture family of elements that get along with each 
> other by including plants that provide nutrients, attract beneficials, 
> create mulch, control diseases, suppress grasses, etc. We could, and 
> will most likely, create hundreds of "recipes" for guilds that work 
> with persimmons (or almonds or sassafras)  and they would all be 
> right, or not, for the region in which we are working.

CONTACT DETAILS:

Robyn Williamson
PDC, Urban Horticulturist
Hon Sec, Fagan Park Community Eco Garden Committee
Local Seed Network Coordinator
NORTH WESTERN SYDNEY COMMUNITY SEED SAVERS
mobile:  0409 151 435
ph/fx:  (612) 9629 3560
email:  rz.williamson@optusnet.com.au
http://www.seedsavers.net/lsn/32.html
http://www.communityfoods.com.au
http://www.au.gardenweb.com/directory/fpceg
http://www.sydney.foe.org.au/water



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:25:34 -0500
From: Keith Johnson <keithdj@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Persimmon Guild
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <421292FE.4040108@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Its great learning about all the things that grow well under black 
walnuts and I'm alway interested in learning more. I'm curious to hear 
listed the items that failed to grow under them. I can begin the list 
with tomatoes and potatoes and apples (even apples have been known to 
grow if you put other plants between them and the walnuts, like tree 
legumes and mulberry). I guess it comes down to distance.

Keith Johnson
Permaculture Activist Magazine
PO Box 1209
Black Mountain, NC 28711
(828)669-6336

also Patterns for Abundance Design & Consulting
Culture's Edge at Earthaven Ecovillage
http://www.permacultureactivist.net
http://www.earthaven.org
http://www.bioregionalcongress.org


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------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:35:43 -0500
From: "Cricket Rakita" <cricket@savingourseed.org>
Subject: RE: [permaculture] Persimmon Guild
To: "'permaculture'" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <E1D1DAT-0000tJ-00@pop-a065d19.pas.sa.earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="US-ASCII"

Persimmons are the sole source for food for Luna Moths, a truly beautiful
insect.

Cricket Rakita
The Save Our Seed Project Coordinator
Carolina Farm Stewardship Association
49 Circle D Dr.
Colbert, GA  30628
home/work:  (706) 788-0017
fax:  (706) 788-0071
cell:  (706) 614-1451
web:  http://www.savingourseed.org
email:  cricket@savingourseed.org

-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Keith 
Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 7:26 PM
To: permaculture
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Persimmon Guild

Its great learning about all the things that grow well under black 
walnuts and I'm alway interested in learning more. I'm curious to hear 
listed the items that failed to grow under them. I can begin the list 
with tomatoes and potatoes and apples (even apples have been known to 
grow if you put other plants between them and the walnuts, like tree 
legumes and mulberry). I guess it comes down to distance.

Keith Johnson
Permaculture Activist Magazine
PO Box 1209
Black Mountain, NC 28711
(828)669-6336

also Patterns for Abundance Design & Consulting
Culture's Edge at Earthaven Ecovillage
http://www.permacultureactivist.net
http://www.earthaven.org
http://www.bioregionalcongress.org






------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:24:15 -0500
From: Keith Johnson <keithdj@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Persimmon Guild
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <4212A0BF.8060008@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

Luna moths. Oh, boy. That's one of the best reasons for growing 
persimmons that I've heard. I have seen a total of four in my 52 years. 
Once as a child in N Mich (where persimmons don't grow...they MUST eat 
something else)  and thrice here in NC where wild persimmons are common 
(one of them in a cat's mouth...grrrr...and one on an auto grill) Thank 
you.
Keith

Cricket Rakita wrote:

>Persimmons are the sole source for food for Luna Moths, a truly 
beautiful
>insect.
>
>Cricket Rakita
>The Save Our Seed Project Coordinator
>Carolina Farm Stewardship Association
>49 Circle D Dr.
>Colbert, GA  30628
>home/work:  (706) 788-0017
>fax:  (706) 788-0071
>cell:  (706) 614-1451
>web:  http://www.savingourseed.org
>email:  cricket@savingourseed.org
>
>
>  
>
Keith Johnson
Permaculture Activist Magazine
PO Box 1209
Black Mountain, NC 28711
(828)669-6336

also Patterns for Abundance Design & Consulting
Culture's Edge at Earthaven Ecovillage
http://www.permacultureactivist.net
http://www.earthaven.org
http://www.bioregionalcongress.org





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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 2/10/2005



------------------------------

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End of permaculture Digest, Vol 25, Issue 17
********************************************




+++++++++++++++
Stephanie Gerson
sgerson@stanfordalumni.org
(c) 415.871.5683


____________________________________________________________________