permaculture

["Tradingpost" <tradingpost@gilanet.com>]

Idealize rural life? Speaking only for myself, I grew up in the country, 
worked 30 years in Dallas, and now live in a remote rural area. I know both 
very well. Of course I criticize cities, not because they're cities but 
because of what people have made of them. I also criticize rural areas for 
what people have made of them. And I live consistent with my convictions, 
instead of preaching something I know nothing about.

I also know permaculture was intended as a complete system for living 
sustainably, not a weekend backyard project in the city for people to dabble 
in for some "feel good" in between days at the mall and days slaving as a 
mindless cog in the corporate machine. And I don't think "we" are going to 
build any "bridge from un-sustainable human settlements to sustainable ones", 
simply because "we" are not in charge of the world. We are the wealthy elite 
of the world, with about a billion in some stage of starvation. The very idea 
that "we" can or should change the world (to suit ourselves of course) is 
part and parcel of the hubris that has been the fatal flaw of western culture 
for centuries. Many so called progressives still seem to think the world 
envies the American Way of Life, yearns for our democracy, or would jump at 
the opportunity to get a piece of The American Dream. What they really want 
is for us to get our boot off their neck. Consider the Peace Corps - They 
think they're taking the light of technology and democracy to the world 
(darkest Africa?), but in fact they could learn a lot more that's worthwhile 
from other cultures than they ever learned in college.  Similarly, 
permaculture comes along, and surprise -- some people just take a class and 
water it down to make it the latest fad. And never realize that for many 
centuries "primitive" indigenous peoples the world over have developed 
appropriate technology for sustainability wherever they were.

We're all learning, and of course if we don't make mistakes it means we 
aren't pushing the envelope. Perhaps the dialogue will work as a course 
correction mechanism. Onward and upward.

paul@largocreekfarms.com
http://medicinehill.net

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 10/19/2004 at 3:26 PM Stephanie Gerson wrote:

>Interesting discussion, folks.
>
>But it almost seems too easy to criticize cities and idealize rural life.
>I
>know Toby warns against this, and makes a good case, but I would also
>refrain
>from citing per capita statistics - considering that while per capita costs
>may be small, the overall cost of the system they compose may be enormous.
>For example, Toby writes that while living rurally, he had "a whole septic
>system instead of a bit of drain pipe and a tiny fraction of a treatment
>plant" - but what about that treatment plant, eh?  He also cited that "an
>average apartment in San Francisco uses 1/5 the heating fuel per capita
>that a
>tract house out in Davis uses" - but what about the entire city of San
>Francisco versus Davis?  So, we must acknowledge the entire system.
>
>But back to the easy bit.  Instead of simply condemning cities (which, I
>admit, may deserve condemnation), can we move onwards and consider other
>questions?  What is the goal, per say, of a city?  To fit as many people as
>possible in the smallest amount of space?  And if so, how to sustainably
>satisfy this goal, considering the ideas Sean raised in his post?  Or, if
>we
>assume that this goal is in itself unsustainable, how to make a bridge from
>un-sustainable human settlements to sustainable ones - in terms of urban
>planning (a la Smart Growth), policy initiatives, and otherwise?  I know
>these
>topics have already been elaborated upon, but still curious to hear what
>you
>think...
>
>I think outside the box is stuck in the box.
>
>peace
>*Stephanie
>
>
>
>------ Original Message ------
>Received: 12:08 PM PDT, 10/19/2004
>From: "Tradingpost" <tradingpost@gilanet.com>
>To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>Subject: Re: [permaculture] self-sufficiency
>
>
>You seem to be thinking outside the box (literally "box") there, and IMHO
>that's what we desperately need.  I can't see making the concrete jungle
>sustainable.  You mentioned "those fortunate enough to get to the country
>side" but I'd make it "determined enough".  And "We need, in effect, to
>learn
>to cage ourselves into our own little zoo, otherwise known as cities".  I
>don't follow the reasoning there. It seems to contradict permaculture
>completely. Small town America has been decimated for decades by the
>flight to
>the city; rural economies have suffered; and there's more than enough room
>(and work) in small town America for all who want to flee the concrete
>jungle.
>If we can't see that, it's because our mind is still stuck in the city.  My
>belief is the world could practice permaculture and feed itself and live in
>harmony if socioeconomic institutions and concentration of wealth and power
>didn't control most of the world. Let's keep thinking outside the box.
>
>paul@largocreekfarms.com
>
>*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>
>On 10/19/2004 at 10:15 AM Sean Maley wrote:
>
SNIP