permaculture

[Stephanie Gerson <sgerson@stanfordalumni.org>]

Interesting discussion, folks.

But it almost seems too easy to criticize cities and idealize rural life.  I
know Toby warns against this, and makes a good case, but I would also refrain
from citing per capita statistics - considering that while per capita costs
may be small, the overall cost of the system they compose may be enormous. 
For example, Toby writes that while living rurally, he had "a whole septic
system instead of a bit of drain pipe and a tiny fraction of a treatment
plant" - but what about that treatment plant, eh?  He also cited that "an
average apartment in San Francisco uses 1/5 the heating fuel per capita that a
tract house out in Davis uses" - but what about the entire city of San
Francisco versus Davis?  So, we must acknowledge the entire system.  

But back to the easy bit.  Instead of simply condemning cities (which, I
admit, may deserve condemnation), can we move onwards and consider other
questions?  What is the goal, per say, of a city?  To fit as many people as
possible in the smallest amount of space?  And if so, how to sustainably
satisfy this goal, considering the ideas Sean raised in his post?  Or, if we
assume that this goal is in itself unsustainable, how to make a bridge from
un-sustainable human settlements to sustainable ones - in terms of urban
planning (a la Smart Growth), policy initiatives, and otherwise?  I know these
topics have already been elaborated upon, but still curious to hear what you
think...

I think outside the box is stuck in the box.  

peace
*Stephanie



------ Original Message ------
Received: 12:08 PM PDT, 10/19/2004
From: "Tradingpost" <tradingpost@gilanet.com>
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [permaculture] self-sufficiency


You seem to be thinking outside the box (literally "box") there, and IMHO
that's what we desperately need.  I can't see making the concrete jungle
sustainable.  You mentioned "those fortunate enough to get to the country
side" but I'd make it "determined enough".  And "We need, in effect, to learn
to cage ourselves into our own little zoo, otherwise known as cities".  I
don't follow the reasoning there. It seems to contradict permaculture
completely. Small town America has been decimated for decades by the flight to
the city; rural economies have suffered; and there's more than enough room
(and work) in small town America for all who want to flee the concrete jungle.
If we can't see that, it's because our mind is still stuck in the city.  My
belief is the world could practice permaculture and feed itself and live in
harmony if socioeconomic institutions and concentration of wealth and power
didn't control most of the world. Let's keep thinking outside the box. 

paul@largocreekfarms.com

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 10/19/2004 at 10:15 AM Sean Maley wrote:

>I think what is important in this discussion is the
>following:
>
>The problem is the solution.
>
>Here we have huge expenditures to build a city, verses
>an individual that could pack dirt in tires on their
>new plot of land.  The importation of food is clearly
>a vulnerability to city life; and frustrating to walk
>home with.  There is no affordable land here, so we
>are stuck with the following problems:
>
>At $600/mo for parking here at 55th and Madison, I
>wouldn't think of driving to work and risk a total
>$800/mo parking bill between uptown and downtown. 
>There is a lovely bike trial up and down the west side
>from tip to tip of the Island, so that is a start for
>an alternative.  Rule of thumb here in a super sized
>city:  "Don't own a car, just walk it.  Take the
>subway if you really can't walk it, or forget about
>it."  At $4000/mo for 2br rent, I can't afford to live
>close enough to walk, so I take the subway part way
>from my "bad neighborhood" $2000/mo apmt.
>
>Growing food entails the use of rooftops and/or grow
>lighting (very few apmts have the needed sun-light for
>many food crops).  The problem with the roof involves
>insurance companies and denizen sun bathing having
>been identified as why insurance costs more if there
>is any access to the rooftops.  NYC building codes
>resist the concept of wind power on the rooftops, but
>solar only helps negligibly in comparison.  Meanwhile,
>CSA's and green markets only operate fully in the
>summer months.
>
>The glaring opportunities underneath these problems
>are Zone 0 + 1 development, and lobbying for
>greenroof/wind mill building codes for a city this
>size.  For those here in NYC, please please work with
>me to package workable solutions for the people of the
>city.  Did I say please?  It's all well and good for
>those fortunate enough to get to the country side,
>which the city folk desperately need you in terms of
>things like year round CSA's and green markets.
>
>However, there are billions of people, not millions. 
>Humans have far overextending themselves to keep
>looking at this as people per acre problem.  This is
>an equation of 6 billion and growing need to stop
>over-populating and figure out how we can sustain
>ourselves away from the natural world, but with how
>the natural world works.  We need to be separated
>because there are too many of us, but we need to bring
>those components we need for survival into our
>isolation.  We need, in effect, to learn to cage
>ourselves into our own little zoo, otherwise known as
>cities.
>
>My building has 64 apartments with an average of 3
>people per unit.  The apartments are big by Manhattan
>standards, but are still not nearly large enough to
>maintain the fl aura for food alone.  The funny thing
>is that there is enough space to have fish tanks for
>walls and, with edible fish, have enough protein
>source to feed everyone, yet not space to grow the
>plant population which that fish population could
>support.  There is also a weight issue for most
>buildings if this much water were applied to a closed
>apartment ecosystem.  The power for grow lights would
>have to come from Wind (plenty with vortical growth
>factored in).
>
>Any suggestions on other Urban Zone 0 or 1 concepts? 
>Is it possible to have a gourmet, non vegan, meal on
>less than an acre?  Contact me if you are interested
>in ultra-urban permaculture applications.  I've lived
>in several Northeastern US cities and NYC is a
>completely different animal from what most think of
>when the words urban and city are used.
>
>The past is the past and most of these buildings where
>created too long ago to apply to urban vs rural
>thought experiments.  What could be applied today to
>make a building for many people, vs many buildings for
>many people?  Are we replacing suburban sprawl with
>eco-village sprawl?  That sounds like an upgrade, but
>isn't it really just playing games with people
>density, which each person is comfortable with what
>they are familiar?  What is an ideal human social
>density without individual bias?  What is an ideal
>ecological density?  What of the economics to keep it
>fair balancing the two?
>
>In hopes that I have not offended anyone...  In hopes
>there is productive discussion...  In hopes we have
>real ideas applying permaculture to repair the blight
>known as totalitarian agriculture....
>
>
>-Sean.
>
>--- Tradingpost <tradingpost@gilanet.com> wrote:
>
>> 
>> Granted that in general apartments and mass transit
>> can be less wasteful of resources, but that's about
>> it. Owen only looks at individual people's footprint
>> living in those apartments and taking the subway.
>> The big picture tells the opposite story. He forgets
>> how all the infrastructure got there in the first
>> place, and forgets that most of those millions also
>> have to have someplace to work (terribly wasteful
>> office buildings), and apparently that doesn't
>> count. Owen doesn't consider the enormous cost in
>> resources to build those apartments in Manhattan
>> versus cost of apartments elsewhere. Or the
>> unbelievably high cost of materials, fossil fuels,
>> and labor to construct subways in Manhattan,
>> compared to mass transit in most other places.
>> 
>> The argument on transportation and distribution of
>> goods is equally questionable. Fighting traffic for
>> hours in densely populated areas wastes fossil fuel
>> just like driving all over the countryside.  And
>> stats on electricity usage are misleading if we
>> compare apples and oranges. City infrastructure
>> itself burns enormous amounts of fossil fuel. I live
>> in a large county with no stoplights or sidewalks at
>> all, and only the county seat with 1,500 people has
>> a municipal sewer system. And rural looks even
>> better if the "electricity-hogging" farm produces
>> more of its own needs (and its neighbors needs)
>> instead of having them shipped in from far away.
>> 
>
>
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Stephanie Gerson
sgerson@stanfordalumni.org
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