permaculture

[Stephanie Gerson <sgerson@stanfordalumni.org>]

howdy yalls

I’ve been observing this discussion and wanting to respond, apologies if
this post is a bit overdue…  A few things to add to the brew:

Here we are, arguing about the financial unsustainability of courses teaching
a sustainability-enhancing methodology applicable to any field of human
activity…does anyone else see the inherent irony?  So I’ll pose the
obvious question: how can we apply the principles of Permaculture design to
Permaculture education?  And I’m not referring to the application of
Permaculture principles to educational tools and curricula (which Christopher
Peck and Michael Kramer explore, and is a fascinating realm of inquiry in
itself) – but instead, to the *logistics* of teaching Permaculture.  

How can we, for instance, stack functions or use “waste” as a resource in
order to reduce PDC costs?  By hosting a PDC alongside a raw foods cooking
course, and having the cooking students make meals for the PDC students as
part of their learning process?  By having PDC students perform landscaping or
garden design work for the venue, and receive free lodging in exchange?  Or
(and I’m not adverse to incorporating money – another element to be cycled
and recycled…) – by having the PDC students produce something (whether it
be a book, film, website, performance, or otherwise) that could be sold to the
local or Permaculture community, and used to cover course costs?  (Hey now,
you got 15+ motivated and inspired folks, together in the same place at the
same time, and jazzed up on Permaculture – definitely a potentially
lucrative resource to be tapped!)  Ok, so my examples are pretty simplistic. 
And perhaps I’m being a somewhat idealistic.  But.  You dig what I’m
trying to say.  Apply Permaculture to itself, make the message match the
medium, render sustainability sustainable.  Perhaps this could be a component
of every PDC – how to apply the principles you just learned to the course
you just took…

And I understand that Mr. Cardon, as Bart described, applies numerous
Permaculture principles in his own teaching structure (using what’s already
available, among others).  However, this don’t mean that all Permaculture
education must take the same form as Mr. Cardon’s – Permaculture
principles, as we well understand, may be applied to any landscape.  Although
the systems are different, the relationships between their components are the
same.  Following, Permaculture principles may be applied to all educational
landscapes, in this case, to create teaching structures suitable to people and
place.  And this is what I thought Rita was referring to when she asked,
“Hey, are some of you forgetting that one of the major principles in
permaculture is the one of diversity?”  Mais bien sur!  Although Rita may
have been referring to a diversity of opinions, what about a diversity of
teaching structures?  As many of you have suggested, there are a multitude of
ways to engage in Permaculture education.  Mr. Cadron’s is one way, but
there are infinite others (you’ll be hearing from me again soon about one of
them).  And isn’t embracing this diversity of teaching mechanisms one
manifestation of applying Permaculture principles to Permaculture education? 


Finally, Globalcircle wrote, “We should shed our hubris and focus on
learning more from those who always knew.  Maybe that’s how pc courses
should be…”  Alright.  Well, if Toby is sincere about wanting to charge
more to those who have more, what's the problem with making “sociopaths”
pay to learn what need to know in order to overcome their
“sociopathologizing”?  Especially if courses are taught by “those who
always knew,” and they were paid for it?  Making “sociopaths” pay
“those who always knew” – there’s some nice function-stackin’ right
there!

But getting back to my initial question, I’d really appreciate an insightful
discussion about the application of Permaculture principles to Permaculture
education…

peace
*Stephanie

p.s.  The ultimate irony: Globalcircle wrote, “Maybe I should write a book
myself. Call it "Gaia's Garden Bites" (or how to make sustainable principles
work for you today without paying to get certified by someone who doesn't know
any more than you do).”  Wonderful!  And if you sold it, you’d be able to
afford a PDC course right?  Oh wait, but are you planning to sell it?  Because
wouldn’t you just become “that guy” that you warn people about in the
book, trying to sell people Permaculture principles?

p.p.s.  In all seriousness, Globalcircle, if that’s how you feel, you should
most definitely write that book.  As it reads on the bottom of Michael
Kramer's emails: be the change you wish to see in the world.


------ Original Message ------
Received: 10:31 AM PDT, 09/21/2004
From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
To: permaculture list <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>,
<Campbell.Roy@gmail.com>Cc: 
Subject: Re: [permaculture] It's free on the web/ was question
aboutPCDcourseprices

Nice job of trolling, Roy; you got me. I thought this thread had died a
merciful death.

On 9/21/04 7:57 AM, "Campbell" <Campbell.Roy@gmail.com> wrote:

> To the ownership thing with the names on the coffee cups then washed
> no names blah blah, there is absolutely no positive in this just a
> huge negative  it shows a total lack of team work, total disrespect of
> personal space and an overwhelming sense of selfishness.

I didn't intend it to show anything positive, just a fact. The class was
what I'd consider a pretty random sample of 25 people interested in Pc from
many places, probably similar to the makeup of this list.  Call the people
any names you want; I doubt if many of us would do any better in the same
situation. I consider the behavior absolutely typical for our culture, and
have seen it repeated countless times in other situations.

> To those whom believe payment (read money) for time doing a task blow
> it out your ass particularly in relation to sharing knowledge. This
> should be payed for by the community/society and not by individuals

Where is this utopia? I want in. Seriously, you're right (though socialism
has some pretty ugly examples). But how is this done? Taxes? Knowledge
exchanged for free food and housing programs--operated by who? Prisoners? Or
by contented members of society who are eager to work for free so that we
all can take workshops?  How would it work? Sadly, I'm living in this world,
not utopia, and have to make do with things as they are. I love the idea of
everyone working and putting their efforts into a common pool. It works in
villages below population 500 or so, but in larger groups, in every culture
I know of, above that number you get freeloading and theft, so structures to
deal with that must emerge. In our culture, the structures are money and
private property. As badly flawed as they are (I know the flaws and the
alternatives; it's an interest of mine), they allow a certain degree of
function. 

As has been said many times, if you put out energy and get little in return,
you stop doing it (or get really, really angry--ahem). We're looking for
ways to make Pc available to all, and we use a lot of different ways to do
that. Ideally ways that avoid the burnout of working for free.

> This just shows how you've been educated by your society.....
> User pays and if they can't discard them or lock them up.

Where do you get that idea? We've mentioned many, many ways to learn or do
Pc for free. I spend plenty of time teaching Pc to people with little money;
so does every teacher I know. I've never had a problem with people being
unwilling to make some kind of exchange; that's why I'm baffled that there
are people on this list who feel the work or time of another should be
offered for nothing in return.

 > If someone asks a simple question and you get deeply offended/affected
> by it what does that say about you as a person?? Why is it necessary
> to do a break down of costs then bemoan I do this much and only get
> payed so and so

Didn't mean to sound like I was whining about how much I get paid. I was
responding to a direct request for a breakdown of the price, and to a couple
of posts that complained about how Pc teachers were "raking it in." (I
confess to a little annoyance about how often the question is asked when Pc
workshops are far cheaper than almost any other.) I'm pretty satisfied with
teaching Pc and have no complaints about the wages or the amount of work.
But I disagree with the idea that I owe someone an education. In a society
structured differently, I would act differently, but I live in this culture.
I have also chosen which aspects are worth my trying to change, and which
ones aren't.

I don't think it's right to compare caring for sick family members to
offering to teach or otherwise support healthy, able people who are asking
for a service and perfectly capable of doing something in return for the
service. I've cared for a dying sibling myself and know the difference.

I'm just some guy who's trying to figure out a way to spread Pc around. The
narrow bandwidth of email can't possibly do justice to subtle discussions
and nuanced points of view. If you need to make me into a  money-grubbing
monster who would like to eat your children in return for teaching you, go
ahead. Projecting our own fears and hatreds onto others and snapping back
with insult and distortion is very easy to do in this medium; what's harder
is to try to understand what the other person is actually meaning.

Toby
www.patternliteracy.com


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+++++++++++++++
Stephanie Gerson
sgerson@stanfordalumni.org
(c) 415.871.5683


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