permaculture

["Cochran, Jason" <jcochran@pa.peacecorps.gov>]

Hi all-
Ok I finally got around to researching the contacts I made at a permaculture
semiar in Panama for  Cuba Permaculture:

Ing. Maria Caridad Cruz was the facilitator the seminar and she works for
Fundacion Antonio Nunez Jimenez de la Naturaleza y el Hombre Cuba, website:
http://www.fnh.cult.cu/indice.html
She also was working with a Roberto Sánchez Medina-
The website should be able to direct you towards the contacts you need- hope
this helps!
 

-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org]
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 9:18 AM
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: permaculture Digest, Vol 20, Issue 16

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: RE: permaculture Digest, Vol 20, Issue 12
      (neotern-1@yahoo.com)
   2. Re: It's free on the web/ was question about PCD  courseprices
      (Robyn Williamson)
   3. Re: It's free on the web/ was question about      PCDcourseprices
      (neotern-1@yahoo.com)
   4. RE: Permaculture in Cuba  (genest@pivot.net)
   5. Re: Permaculture in Cuba (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
   6. Re: It's free on the web/ was question about      PCDcourseprices
      (Toby Hemenway)
   7. Fwd: Dainty Plant Can Clean Contaminated Soil (mIEKAL aND)
   8. Re: It's free on the web (mIEKAL aND)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 05:07:07 -0500 (CDT)
From: <neotern-1@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] RE: permaculture Digest, Vol 20, Issue 12
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <20040910100707.19882.qmail@web61204.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

 --- "Cochran, Jason" <jcochran@pa.peacecorps.gov>
escribió: 
> Yes permaculture is being widely practiced in Cuba
> with some good success in
> urban agriculture- I attended a seminar given by 3
> Cubans on permaculutre
> (permacultura..) and urban gardens in Panama City,
> Panama last year and I
> was impressed with their knowledge and they had all
> the books, contacts and
> how to become a permaculturist. If given time I can
> come up with their
> contacts if you would like to email me personally...
> Sincerely yours, Jason Cochran
> 
> 
<snip>

Hey Jason,

maybe we will be spending a few months in Cuba early
next year before settling in Mexico, and we would be
very interested in some permaculture contacts over
there...

My (mexican) wife's mother married a cuban recently by
the way and will be moving to Cuba permanently, and
she will also be interested.

Wouldn't it be possible/preferable to give their
contacts to the whole list - if they agree of course?

cheers,
Bart

=====
"There is not much to be done against them, but everything without them."

Registered Linux User #314712 (http://counter.li.org/)

_________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 21:29:10 +1000
From: Robyn Williamson <rz.williamson@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] It's free on the web/ was question about
        PCD     courseprices
To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <A29727AE-031C-11D9-A34F-0030657170AA@optusnet.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=US-ASCII;       format=flowed

On Friday, September 10, 2004, at 05:00 am, Loren Davidson wrote:

> Taking the course helped me to "get it,"

Right on, Loren, me too.  There's something about 72 hours of being 
saturated in permaculture with a bunch of like-minded people that turns 
your whole head around.  I know people who do their research, read the 
books and put Pc into practice but somehow still do not quite "get it" 
(i.e. the *whole* story, in one go).  Consequently they prolong the 1 
step forward/1 step back syndrome.

Best wishes, Robyn

CONTACT DETAILS:

Robyn Williamson
PDC, Urban Horticulturist
Hon Sec, Fagan Park Community Eco Garden Committee
Local Seed Network Coordinator
NORTH WESTERN SYDNEY COMMUNITY SEED SAVERS
ph/fx:  (612) 9629 3560
email:  rz.williamson@optusnet.com.au
http://www.communityfoods.com.au
http://www.au.gardenweb.com/directory/fpceg
http://www.seedsavers.net



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:50:01 -0500 (CDT)
From: <neotern-1@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] It's free on the web/ was question about
        PCDcourseprices
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <20040910115002.25547.qmail@web61205.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

After reading everything concerning this
"money-problem", I have to say that what Paul says
comes closest to my ideas also.

Toby's detailed list does clarify a lot, and it is
true that people should choose their priorities: a lot
of them out there who say they can't afford PC courses
would be able to pay if they would just let go of
their TV's, (second) cars, "cool" or designer's
clothes, expensive holidays etc.
And I agree that for what is proposed, it is a fair
price.

However, there are ways of circumventing the
money-problem. Mr. Cardon for instance, who has a
magnificent permaculture garden in Mouscron, Belgium,
gives free access to his garden to anyone at any time.
His garden (1,800 square meters of edible jungle), in
the middle of a small town, doesn't even have a gate!
Anyone can enter as if it were a park. Mr. Cardon
himself, now retired from earning his living laying
floors in houses as an independant (not from selling
the substantial permaculture knowledge he acquired
during 30 years of practice), is always around and is
very willing and glad to be able to talk about
everything concerning gardens and plants. Two half
days per month, on the first two sundays of each
month, he gives a free course in his garden, partly
practice, partly theory. (One is more or less expected
to become member of his association, which costs 1.5
euros (!) per year.) He also sells seeds for next to
nothing.
Mr. Cardon doesn't gain, nor loose money this way; the
gain in knowledge sharing, and for the planet as a
whole, is however considerable.

I sincerely think, as Paul does, that information
should not be sold, and that there are sufficient ways
of passing it on, even verbally (the preferred way of
Mr. Cardon), master-to-student or "hands on", without
charging (again, any costs made must be shared of
course).
I agree that one should not loose money passing the
information (costs must be shared by everyone), but
can't see why one should gain money either in this
way.

Again, Mr. Cardon for example (hope you won't come to
dislike him for my using him as an example all the
time :-) ) sold the work of his hands during his
"active" life, and NOT information, even if he could
have.

Now, if we look at this from a perspective outside the
"rich" world (rich in money and exploitation, poor in
everything else), this becomes even more clear.
Imagine a poor rural community in Mexico, experiencing
every day the problems permaculture can help to answer
(loss of autonomy, soil depletion, chemical-related
diseases, contaminated rivers, etc.) - you don't have
to imagine them by the way, there are thousands of
them in Chiapas alone (south of Mexico). They would be
only too glad to invite, feed, and house a
permaculture instructor, first of all because that's
their culture of hospitability, and second because
they are ready to do what it takes for their
children's sake and that of the earth (anyone who has
heard of the zapatistas will know what I mean). These
are people that camp outside a prison, the whole
community, during months to free their leaders; that
defend their land literally with their lives. When I
see the PC design course prices in Mexico and think of
these people, only too willing and in need of help,
but without a penny, something just doesn't seem right
at all. The Permaculture Institute in Oaxaca, Mexico,
gave a PC design course in 2003 that cost $1200 US
dollars(*). This is about a whole year's pay for the
Mexican who needs it. Another Mexican
permaculturist(**) charges 4000 pesos (about 345 $)
for one week of cob-building, one third of a year's
pay. Something definitely is wrong here. In Mexico one
has to exploit substantially before being able to
learn about permaculture and stop exploiting.

Of course, finally there's nothing wrong with
proposing the PC design courses at the current prices.
Those who can afford it, can still pay them, it will
probably be the best way they have spent their money
in years, even in their whole lifetime; money that
will be well used afterwards. And seeing the
explanation by Toby, as mentioned before, I agree that
for what is proposed, it is a fair price. 

Only, in my opinion we really need first of all lots
more of Mr. Cardon's style, or similar ways of
"initiation", as the basic and most important way of
passing permaculture on.
(And so what if some rich people leech of a free
course, what is lost finally? Nothing, at the
contrary, maybe they see the light...)

And as Graham said, "get at it, bart", well, that's
exactly what we're doing: walking the permaculture
path, and in time, when we reach some degree of
"mastery", pass it on to others.

Cheers,
Bart

(*)
http://redcaldas.colciencias.gov.co:8888/MHonArc/biologia/msg00068.html
(**) http://www.tierramor.org/cursos/cursos.htm



 --- GlobalCirclenet <webmaster@globalcircle.net>
escribió: 
> 
> One of those free places is the big list of PC links
> at
> http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/Links.html . I
> rather imagine that people
> getting $700 a pop don't advertise all the free PC
> information out there.
> But if they can rake in that kind of money, no
> concern to me, I can't
> afford it. 
> 
> My concern is this: to spread more PC information
> and experience it needs
> to be geared to the vast majority who are working
> people, small farm
> families just scraping by, and so forth. Because
> those who can afford the
> price of these seminars, the travel expense and
> overnites, and afford the
> time off work to attend, comprise a very small
> fraction of the
> sustainability-minded population. Sometimes the goal
> gets confused with the
> objective. They think, ok, permaculture is good, I
> teach permaculture and
> get paid for it, so the more people I get to my
> seminars the better.
> Getting people to paid seminars becomes the goal
> instead of an intermediate
> objective. The original goal was to spread knowledge
> and practice of
> permaculture. I'm committed to the goal in my own
> work. I charge for
> bedding plants and produce. But I give information
> out for free. I want
> everybody to compete with me.
> 
> paul@largocreekfarms.com
> paul tradingpost@gilanet.com
> 
> That is well said, replied Candide, but we must
> cultivate our garden. 
> --Voltaire [Francois-Marie Arouet] Candide 
> 
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
> 
> On 9/9/2004 at 9:09 PM Graham Burnett wrote:
> 
> >> I think that rather than wasting time arguing
> about what the course
> >costs,
> >people might make better use of their time by
> digging said "free"
> >information off the Web (which requires that
> someone has paid for the
> >server
> >hosting the info and for the computer used to
> retrieve it, the electricity
> >to run the machines, and the infrastructure
> connecting them)
> >
> >And spent time researching it, writing it up,
> posting it up to the web...
> >
> >
> >---
> >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> >Checked by AVG anti-virus system
> (http://www.grisoft.com).
> >Version: 6.0.756 / Virus Database: 506 - Release
> Date: 08/09/2004
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >permaculture mailing list
> >permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>  

=====
"There is not much to be done against them, but everything without them."

Registered Linux User #314712 (http://counter.li.org/)

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
La mejor conexión a internet y 25MB extra a tu correo por $100 al mes.
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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:17:50 -0400
From: "genest@pivot.net" <genest@pivot.net>
Subject: RE: [permaculture] Permaculture in Cuba 
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <229200-220049510121750476@M2W042.mail2web.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1


I'm planning on visiting Cuba this year Larry  ...Wiyh my Cdn.passport of
course...( not just for pc though...always wanted to learn to Salsa !)

I know there are many Cdn developers already in cahoots with locals just
ready to build all manner of generic big-ass resorts as soon as they can...
I think you will see the type of development that makes us cringe happen so
fast it will be scary... Scarier still will be how most Cubans will cheer
it and welcome it as progress...Very discouraging indeed....
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Lawrence F. London, Jr. lfl@intrex.net
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 12:47:18 -0700
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [permaculture] Permaculture in Cuba 



Is permaculture (per se) being practiced and taught in Cuba?
Are there any online resources on this topic?

What would happen if Cuba became the 54th US state? Would the
multinationals, i.e. Monsanto, ADM, Cargill
and others move in, shove aside all existing Cuban organic farming,
vermicomposting, PC and other natural technologies beyone value?

There must be a way for the Cuban people to keep what they have yet be free
of the yoke of communism and domination by multinational
ag conglomerates and transnational trade agreements like NAFTA.

Is there a PC-flavored democratic solution to solve Cuba's economic and
development problems. I don't think it is Cuba's destiny to become
a mid-Carribean whorehouse as some have implied.

Comments?

-- 
L.F.London
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech
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http://mail2web.com/ .




------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:07:19 -0700
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Permaculture in Cuba
To: genest@pivot.net, permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <4141DF47.6080309@intrex.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

genest@pivot.net wrote:
> I'm planning on visiting Cuba this year Larry  ...Wiyh my Cdn.passport of

What does Cdn. mean?

> course...( not just for pc though...always wanted to learn to Salsa !)
> 
> I know there are many Cdn developers already in cahoots with locals just
> ready to build all manner of generic big-ass resorts as soon as they
can...

That's just what I was referring to regarding influx of big business into
Cuba displacing the best they now have
and again reducing them to a stratified society economically polarized. I
would like to hear srom some Cubans
on this subject; maybe some of those PC people can join this list - or are
they prevented by doing so by the embargo or
Castro's restrictions?

As with the NC coast, once a string of beaachfront cottages and a few small
old timey boarding hotels, which has become "The Crystal Coast",
no doubt named for the crystalline appearance of all the tons of glass in
the high rise hotel and motels that now dominate the shorefront, 
'the result of a real estate goldrush. You can easily imagine what this must
be like; and beach erosion is a huge problem with taxpayer's 
money being ill-spent on stopgap control measures, further compounding the
problem. And then there are the No Swimming and No Fishing
signs indicating water pollution alerts. And the draining of lowland prior
to contruction and the subsequest loss of marine estuaries
and the devastation of the local fishing industry. You can easily imagine
the scenario that could unfold in Cuba.

I had in mind something like ecotourism and educational facilities teaching
farming and permaculture and possibly eco villages
even eco cities; all without disturbing one earthworm in a single garden
there.

> I think you will see the type of development that makes us cringe happen
so
> fast it will be scary... Scarier still will be how most Cubans will cheer
> it and welcome it as progress...Very discouraging indeed....

Part of the required reading for the Cuban PC courses taught weekly should
be participation in this list!
Bring them on!

LL
-- 
L.F.London
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech


------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:55:35 -0700
From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] It's free on the web/ was question about
        PCDcourseprices
To: permaculture list <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <BD670067.2AD7%toby@patternliteracy.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

On 9/9/04 5:16 PM, "GlobalCirclenet" <webmaster@globalcircle.net> wrote:

> I rather imagine that people
> getting $700 a pop don't advertise all the free PC information out there.
> But if they can rake in that kind of money, no concern to me, I can't
> afford it. 


Actually, we hand out a multi-page list of websites and other free resources
at every course, along with about 40 other pages of info.

I understand not being able to afford $700 or $1000. But is this anonymous
poster thick or just unable to read? I pointed out that our wages for the
course amount to about $10/hour, and that we offer work trades and grants
for those who cannot afford it. I guess some people just have an unshakeable
prejudice that anyone charging money for their labor and services is an evil
bastard, no matter what the facts are.

Toby
www.patternliteracy.com




------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:58:16 -0500
From: mIEKAL aND <dtv@mwt.net>
Subject: [permaculture] Fwd: Dainty Plant Can Clean Contaminated Soil
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <7708C303-0331-11D9-81EB-0003935A5BDA@mwt.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed



Begin forwarded message:

> From: ARS News Service <NewsService@ars.usda.gov>
> Date: Fri Sep 10, 2004  7:37:19 AM America/Chicago
> To: ARS News subscriber <memexikon@mwt.net>
> Subject: Dainty Plant Can Clean Contaminated Soil
> Reply-To: ARS News Service <NewsService@ars.usda.gov>
>
> STORY LEAD:
> Dainty Plant Can Power-Clean Cadmium-Contaminated Soils
> ___________________________________________
>
> ARS News Service
> Agricultural Research Service, USDA
> Sharon Durham, (301) 504-1611, sdurham@ars.usda.gov
> September 10, 2004
> ___________________________________________
>
> Delicate, white flowers belie the ability of the small plant called 
> alpine pennycress to lift huge amounts of cadmium from contaminated 
> soil. Agricultural Research Service agronomist Rufus Chaney, of the 
> Animal Manure and By-Products Laboratory in Beltsville, Md., and a 
> group of international scientists have found the plant can concentrate 
> about 8,000 parts per million of cadmium in its leaves.
>
> Cadmium is a naturally occurring element that is widely distributed in 
> the Earth's crust, but zinc mining and smelting wastes can cause high 
> cadmium contamination.
>
> In 1992, the team of scientists from ARS, the University of Maryland, 
> the University of Melbourne-Australia and Massey University-New 
> Zealand began working with alpine pennycress (Thlaspi caerulescens), a 
> plant capable of accumulating vast amounts of cadmium and zinc in 
> aboveground leaves and stems. Using this plant, each year farmers 
> could move soil metals into the harvestable plant shoots, making it 
> possible to gradually reduce the soil concentration of cadmium to safe 
> levels.
>
> The cost of this remediation method, called phytoextraction, is about 
> $250 to $1,000 per acre per year, according to Chaney. The alternative 
> cleanup method--removal of contaminated soil and replacement with 
> clean soil--costs about $1 million per acre. Most highly contaminated 
> soils can be deemed safe after 10 years of phytoextraction, thus 
> producing an effective cleanup at a far lower cost.
>
> In 2000, a patent was filed by the University of Maryland on the use 
> of alpine pennycress to remove cadmium from soil. No other similar 
> technologies currently exist for remediation of cadmium-contaminated 
> soils using plants. Cadmium phytoextraction using alpine pennycress 
> has since been licensed to Phytoextraction Associates, LLC, of 
> Baltimore, Md., which will soon conduct a commercial demonstration of 
> the process.
>
> Research is under way to develop a "super" phytoextraction plant.
>
> Chaney's research is described in the September issue of Agricultural 
> Research magazine, available online at:
> http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/sep04/plant0904.htm
>
> ARS is the chief scientific research agency of the U.S. Department of 
> Agriculture.
> ___________________________________________
>
> * This is one of the news reports that ARS Information distributes to 
> subscribers on weekdays.
> * Start, stop or change an e-mail subscription at 
> www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/subscribe.htm
> * NewsService@ars.usda.gov | www.ars.usda.gov/news
> * Phone (301) 504-1638 | fax (301) 504-1648



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:17:00 -0500
From: mIEKAL aND <dtv@mwt.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] It's free on the web
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <14827C6A-0334-11D9-81EB-0003935A5BDA@mwt.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

This is a fascinating discussion, one that has happened endless times 
here at Dreamtime Village over the years & resulted in us not producing 
& hosting any further full length design courses.  Guessing that the 
average income of folks that come thru here is somewhere between 
$2000-$4000 a year it got to the point that no one from our scene could 
afford to attend, & you can't very well bring in nationally known 
teachers if everyone is on a scholarship or work exchange.  & our 
interest in producing courses was to bring the technology & skills into 
the rural area rather than produce a course where yuppies from the city 
who could shell out this amount would come from afar to attend the 
course.  But rather than condemn the existing system or the fact that 
select folks have chosen to make their living from teaching 
permaculture (which in itself seems like a noble but frustrating 
cause), maybe the wrong question is being asked.

What would it take to set up a free peer to peer open source system of 
permaculture training, knowledge base, & access to resources?

The electronic information component of this is well on its way to 
being established, especially because of the efforts of a number of 
people on this list.  But the information in itself is so much static 
unless it can be connected directly to real hands-on-training, 
education & skill-sharing.  Right now the only groups in the US that I 
know that are actively promoting free access to classes tend to be the 
various infoshop collectives that have been setup by young urban 
anarchists, often times in squatted spaces that are temporary at best, 
but nonetheless reaching out to young folks who have boundless energy & 
spirit for taking action.  I'd love to hear of others attempts at open 
access.

mIEKAL



On Friday, September 10, 2004, at 08:55 AM, Toby Hemenway wrote:

> On 9/9/04 5:16 PM, "GlobalCirclenet" <webmaster@globalcircle.net> 
> wrote:
>
>> I rather imagine that people
>> getting $700 a pop don't advertise all the free PC information out 
>> there.
>> But if they can rake in that kind of money, no concern to me, I can't
>> afford it.
>
>
> Actually, we hand out a multi-page list of websites and other free 
> resources
> at every course, along with about 40 other pages of info.
>
> I understand not being able to afford $700 or $1000. But is this 
> anonymous
> poster thick or just unable to read? I pointed out that our wages for 
> the
> course amount to about $10/hour, and that we offer work trades and 
> grants
> for those who cannot afford it. I guess some people just have an 
> unshakeable
> prejudice that anyone charging money for their labor and services is 
> an evil
> bastard, no matter what the facts are.
>
> Toby
> www.patternliteracy.com



------------------------------

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End of permaculture Digest, Vol 20, Issue 16
********************************************