permaculture

["Kelly Finigan" <kfinigan@spots.ca>]

Harold:


On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:15:13 -0700, Harold Waldock wrote
> It is cheap and efficient to put a hot water to air "radiator" into a
> standard gas furnace less than $1000 and you can keep the gas burning
> component for back up or peaking.

yup, it might be "cheap" but this is only part of a district heating 
system...think about the $ and energy costs of: installing heat exchangers 
at the electricity plant; mining, refining, shipping and installing 
kilometers of large-diameter pipes to individual houses...a CAREFUL full-
cycle energy (& EMERGY) analysis is needed here.

by the way, if you have a water district heating system, WHY would you keep 
an inefficient gas-fired furnace for backup?? the distrcit heat would be 
very RELIABLE.

> 
> A local company  http://www.taylormunro.com/index.html is designing 
> a system that has solar hotwater panels, hotwater tank and then it 
> preheats your hotwater with a tankless heater and has a line out to 
> the forced air system so it will heat your house. 

I know of them well and their installations in Courtney/Comox. I've also 
worked on projects like this here...if you contemplate this type of system, 
you have no need for a district heating system...are you petitioning for 
what I said in my last email post? "snip"

"...my gut feel (maybe
> > someone could challenge/confirm this with facts / figures in the
> > future???)
> > is it would be better to keep the existing infrastructure and upgrade our
> > buildings rather than put in new infrastructure...I suspect
> > weatherstripping, insulating and adding a "solar engine" would be energy-
> > wise and economically cheaper than bringing NEW pipelines down
> > the street,
> > installing NEW heat circulation systems (e.g. radiators),"etc

so, my question to you is: are you agreeing with me, extending my point or 
disagreeing??? it is unclear...if you are attempting to disagree with what I 
said, I'd love to see the logical backup information so we can make better 
decisions about how/where to apply our time/money/resources.

> 
> It is rediculous to say that buying hotwater from a hot water 
> district is more socialist than buying btu's from oil or gas 
> suppliers.  What would be socialist is to continue to pay oil and 
> gas suppliers high prices when it is cheaper (usually much cheaper)
>  to get hot water from a hot water district.
> 

I did not say "buying hotwater from a hot water district is more 
socialist"...I said I think it may be PERCEIVED as such and resisted 
(perhaps quite vigorously) accordingly . Permaculture must deal with 
the "invisible" structures. Alberta, where I live is a very conservative, do-
it-yourself, look-out-for-yourself, more-Texas-than-Texas (we have no 
progressive balancing communities such as Austin), wild-west, free-market 
place. 

Electricity and natural gas were, until a few years ago, public 
utilities - i.e. established and managed for the benefit of the public. Now, 
these are private ("deregulated") utilities - it is now a "dog-eat-dog" free 
market. To establish a business case for district heating generally requires 
co-operation: everybody can benefit in the long term if people work 
together...but only if they work together...it costs more $ at the 
electricity plant, it costs more $ to link the buildings together with 
pipes, and a large number of people have to do this together (i.e. co-
operatively). Around here, anythign smacking of co-operation or "good for 
all" is seen as a form of "socialism"...it certainly is not the "Capitalism" 
vision of "each individual get the most they can". I don't hold much hope 
for sizable disctrict heating around here in the near future, unless it's 
implemented by private developers.

What I think is "rediculous" [sic] is for you, from another region, to pre-
suppose how other people/cultures think - Alberta IS a different culture 
than B.C.

Also, I'm curious how paying "oil and gas suppliers high prices when it is 
cheaper..." is socialist? I think it is stupid, and basically inefficient, 
but fail to see it as socialist (or good for all)...please let me know your 
opinion.


> Hot water districts work in suprisingly large districts so long as 
> the density of use is high.  There are 100's of heating districts in 
> NA in most downtown districts and universities - often old steam 
> systems. Now it is much more economic to have 4 pipe systems cold 
> and hot with returns.
>
yes, big ones work great...small ones are less viable - it comes down to 
recapturing up-front design and infrastructure costs...

 
> Here in BC, there is a crazy case where a gas fired power company is 
> to locate with in feet of the Canadian border, use Canadian gas, pollute
> Canadian Air, use Canadian powerlines and sell the power to the US.  
> They did not offer hotwater to the exsting ones that are now 
> struggling to heat themselves or allow for acres of greenhouses 
> which could have been built.

too bad...another lost opportunity. Have you discussed this with BC Hydro? 
They have a vested interest in reducing greenhouse gases and, still being a 
provincial utility, may be more open to these oppportunities. Another angle 
is approaching the Hot House Tomato people or other large greenhouse grower 
and pointing out the potential savings they could have by using the waste 
heat.

> 
> Every power plant, and industrial facility could heat the whole
> neigbourhood.  It creates goodwill, clean air and is a good use of
> resources.

sure it does...it's a good way to maximise the work available in fossil 
fuels as we use them up!

> 
> Harold Waldock

--
Kelly Finigan, M.Sc. P.Eng. Permaculture Designer
~ Sustainability consultant & ecological designer ~ 

744 - 4 Street NW
Calgary, Alberta T2N 1P2
phone 1-403-283-7270